List of cities that should have their Koppen classification changed? (ice, Chicago)
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I can certainly vouch that summer days is usually much cooler at Bondi than in the CBD and certainly much windier too.
I would not go as far as describing Sydney’s climate as sub-tropical though, the humidity lingers around for approx. three months then it is, thankfully, gone.
I was thinking more in terms of a city like New York City, though classified humid subtropical it seems like it's a misnomer here...Sydney seems a lot more subtropical to me due to the lack of a truly cool/cold winter coupled with warm summers, though it can be argued that its not exactly subtropical here either with cooler summers than NYC.
Perhaps the Koppen classifications could be rejigged in such a way that that Sydney were classified 'warm temperate' and NYC 'warm/humid continental' to better reflect what are two significantly different climates??? Average minimum temperatures below freezing in any month seem too cool to be termed subtropical imo.
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According to this map, the UHI effect in the CBD is certainly showing up with the differentials showing (in terms of colour - red warm and blue cool) quite well: http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/e...ry7-lowres.jpg
Interesting map, clearly shows the effects of the urban heat island effect, didn't realise it was quite so pronounced around roads etc.
Last edited by sulkiercupid; 02-21-2012 at 09:23 AM..
A wind chill of -1 or -2C is far from what I would consider "icy cold", especially with a 5C actual temperature. If it feels cold to you, I don't mind, but icy cold connotes some objective standard of things being "icy", with water being able to freeze easily. 5C regardless of wind chill or even -1 or -2C actual air temperature doesn't even come close. I may seem pedantic, as I should be; such terminology is annoying to me, with the common use of the term "freezing" to denote cold weather being especially offensive. If you say "feels freezing", that's okay by me, but actually saying it is freezing is not.
I would also like to add that classifying NYC as any kind of continental climate is just a joke to me.
I'm not suggesting it is continental in the classifications of Koppen, I'm just saying it shares many similarities with a continental climate only a few degrees warmer. The fact that climates as distinct as New York and Hong Kong can share the same classification seems odd to me. Britain has a pretty much stock standard oceanic climate anyway, don't think many would question its category.
Last edited by sulkiercupid; 02-21-2012 at 10:06 AM..
A wind chill of -1 or -2C is far from what I would consider "icy cold", especially with a 5C actual temperature. If it feels cold to you, I don't mind, but icy cold connotes some objective standard of things being "icy", with water being able to freeze easily. 5C regardless of wind chill or even -1 or -2C actual air temperature doesn't even come close. I may seem pedantic, as I should be; such terminology is annoying to me, with the common use of the term "freezing" to denote cold weather being especially offensive. If you say "feels freezing", that's okay by me, but actually saying it is freezing is not.
I get annoyed at the misuse of freezing, too; but I think -1°C or -2°C should be called freezing, since it's at a temperature water can freeze.
Is that like when people say "I'm freezing." when they're wearing a T-shirt in spring and it was chillier than they expected, but it was only 10C or something?
That's probably just hyperbole like people saying "I'm starving" when they skipped breakfast or "this job is killing me".
The term 'freezing' is used much more liberally here; obviously 5C with windchill below freezing is abnormal in Australia whereas this is typical winter weather through most of North America and Europe. We don't tend to be well kitted out for cool temperatures either.
That seems justified as only being a figure of speech in places where it doesn't really freeze, but even in places, such as in North America, where it's freezing in the literal sense throughout the winter, there's still always "figure-of-speech" freezing, like "Turn up the heating. I'm freezing in here (in the house)." etc.
I get annoyed at the misuse of freezing, too; but I think -1°C or -2°C should be called freezing, since it's at a temperature water can freeze.
I agree with "freezing" referring to (uncomfortably) subfreezing temperatures, but a -1C wind chill with a +5C temperature still isn't freezing . That's what I was referring to.
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Originally Posted by sulkiercupid
Why exactly? The seasonal differences in temperature are similar to those seen in conventional continental climates.
Part of this is a language usage issue. "Continental" in this context doesn't refer to merely having seasonal variation - it's a particular kind of seasonal variation - namely the climates cold enough to maintain a snowpack in Winter and still be warm enough to support trees in Summer. Simplified, a continental location will feature cold Winters and warm or hot Summers.
I still maintain my position and will quote a previous post of mine that adequately explains my view on NYC's climate and by extension other locations on the cold fringe of the subtropics:
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Originally Posted by Patricius Maximus
Subjective measures was exactly my point, but I do consider NYC's Winters to be warm, as it is quite difficult to even get a low below 20 except on the coldest nights (even Nashville can do better than that). There's a near-complete absence of anything I'd call a cold snap, and there isn't persistent snowpack there, either. Furthermore, the precipitation type is rain most of the time, and the general rule with a snowstorm there is that in 4-7 days it will warm up and rain. Temperatures above 40 degrees are also quite common during the daytime, along with nights not much cooler than that, because of its low daily range. 50 degrees also seems to be more attainable than 15 degrees. Nights are not cold in that place most of the time during Winter, and nights are usually kind of warm in the early Winter; it's quite common to have nights above freezing during December, and it is not uncommon not to even have a freeze until the month of December (it occurred just this winter).
Shall I go on? These are the essential characteristics of New York City's winters, which even if they are not all that warm, are certainly not cold and not harsh, as it relates to Winter measures. This combined with it's hot and humid summers with very warm nights supports New York's subtropical classification. But that was not the original point. My original point was against emotion-based climate classification, such as "this place's winter is sooo cold, it can't be subtropical", whereas someone from a bona fide continental climate may similarly say "oh, that place gets so much warmth in winter, it can't be a true continental climate" (even if it's north of the persistent snowline, whereas NYC is not).
The emphasis was not present in the original quote.
The context of this post is displaced in this thread (it originally came from the "northernmost subtropical climate" topic) but it demonstrates the point, which is that it is laughable to say that New York has a continental climate, of course continental being in the context I outlined above, not merely seasonality.
I also believe the rest of my post there may have some value in this thread, namely the subtropical/tropical conflation and its impact on climate classification (especially ones driven by emotionalism):
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I agree with the part about colloquial usage, but it still strikes me as odd. I believe that subtropical and tropical are two distinct areas but are often conflated. For instance, palm trees are by and large tropical plants, not subtropical, although they will grow in warmer parts. Endless summers and nonexistent winters are tropical characteristics as well, although again warmer parts of the subtropics can have winters that are practically not there at all. But the term subtropical scientifically denotes somewhere with a cool season below tropical limits, and with no persistent snowpack, which I would consider a barely-there winter. This again conflicts with colloquial usage about snow equaling winter when there's more to it than that, or at least different grades, which is captured in the Koeppen zones.
To end this rambling, the tropics and the near-tropical deep subtropics are what colloquially is thought of as subtropical, which strikes me as strange.
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. That's what I was referring to.
