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It's a combination of factors that I already explained in the post of mine you initially responded to. A similar combination of a factors would seem to be unlikely in the case of someone of your ancestral background.
It is necessary first to distinguish citizenship and ethnicity.
But that doesn't really answer my question. Why should you feel more Ukrainian than I should feel French? Regardless of the state Ukraine is in & the awful things that have happened in the country, it doesn't mean that you should feel more affiliated with Ukraine than I should with France. I mean England is right by France, I grew up on the south coast, with just the English channel separating me from my grandfathers country. We are on the same continent & share some cultural things too. You are thousands of miles away from Ukraine & you have never even been there...
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Originally Posted by snj90
It would be as you say only if it were without objective basis. In fact, it does have an objective basis.
I could decide to learn French, wear a striped jumper & a beret, put a string of onions round my neck & sing 'Frère Jacques' whilst riding a bicycle that has a couple of baguettes sticking out of the front basket... but it still wouldn't make me French...
My point is you are choosing to consider yourself as Ukrainian, when you are simply an American who has Ukrainian ancestry. By all means be proud of your roots & embrace the culture, but you are American...
My point is you are choosing to consider yourself as Ukrainian
And my point is that's what we Ukrainians have long done. Otherwise, the Ukrainian national consciousness would have been eliminated. Of all the time that the modern territory of Ukraine was absorbed into some other state throughout history (e.g., Russia, USSR, Poland, Romania, Austrian Empire, Austria-Hungary, etc.), the local ethnic Ukrainians have had to maintain a unique Ukrainian identity. You Western Euros take it for granted that your countries and identities will always exist and that no one will try to take it away from you.
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when you are simply an American who has Ukrainian ancestry. By all means be proud of your roots & embrace the culture, but you are American...
American is just a citizenship. Why is this so hard to understand? You are equating two separate concepts. Perhaps subsequent to Americanization, ethnic consciousness will tend to be lost. Okay, so it seems. But clearly that's not true for me. That's all that matters. My heritage is there for me to affirm it.
Irrelevant to the preceding discussion, since the issuance of passports is a state function. Nation is not the same thing as state. Nation-states are states based on a specific nation; some nations are stateless. My Ukrainian grandparents didn't have Ukrainian passports either. Three guesses as to why...
And my point is that's what we Ukrainians have long done. Otherwise, the Ukrainian national consciousness would have been eliminated. Of all the time that the modern territory of Ukraine was absorbed into some other state throughout history (e.g., Russia, USSR, Poland, Romania, Austrian Empire, Austria-Hungary, etc.), the local ethnic Ukrainians have had to maintain a unique Ukrainian identity. You Western Euros take it for granted that your countries and identities will always exist and that no one will try to take it away from you.
American is just a citizenship. Why is this so hard to understand? You are equating two separate concepts. Perhaps subsequent to Americanization, ethnic consciousness will tend to be lost. Okay, so it seems. But clearly that's not true for me. That's all that matters. My heritage is there for me to affirm it.
You still don't explain why you should be more Ukrainian than I should be French though & you also have Italian ancestry, so you should also feel some sort of affiliation to Italy too if you truly believe it is some sort of "natural pull" that is linking you to Ukraine, rather than just the fact your grandparents were from there.
Why do you keep insiting "you" are Ukrainian, you are not, you are American with Ukrainian ancestry. It is EXACTLY the same as me calling myself French, I really don't understand why you cannot see that...
Yes of course Ukrainians should strive to keep their national & cultural identity, I'm not suggesting otherwise, but you are American & have never even been to the country so it doesn't have all that much to do with you either, apart from ancestry...
But the fact remains you ARE American, as as your parents. It seems you are mixing the two up, it seems you believe any ancestral heritage is all that makes you who you are, but it is only part of that. You were born & brought up in America, so your main cultural identity, as well as your citizenship is American. You can have a closeness & feel tied to Ukraine, but any other concept of you feeling you belong to Ukraine is entirely of your own choosing.
Not really. If you don't have Ukrainian citizenship, then you are regarded as a foreigner.
By whom? You?
Even in this respect, you're not really correct. As per Ukrainian law, you can acquire citizenship if you have a parent or grandparent who was born in the territory of Ukraine. The laws of Ukraine have not always been fully pro-Ukrainian with respect to many things (but improvements are gradually being made - e.g., it is illegal to play the soviet anthem in Ukraine). But, even as the law is now, it can apply to someone like me. So you can't even defend the claim you've made.
It may be something I'll wish to do in the future, but I am not in a position to do so now. Plus, I would be required to renounce my American citizenship. And I'd have to gather up a lot of documentation.
Even in this respect, you're not really correct. As per Ukrainian law, you can acquire citizenship if you have a parent or grandparent who was born in the territory of Ukraine. The laws of Ukraine have not always been fully pro-Ukrainian with respect to many things (but improvements are gradually being made - e.g., it is illegal to play the soviet anthem in Ukraine). But, even as the law is now, it can apply to someone like me. So you can't even defend the claim you've made.
It may be something I'll wish to do in the future, but I am not in a position to do so now. Plus, I would be required to renounce my American citizenship. And I'd have to gather up a lot of documentation.
You still don't explain why you should be more Ukrainian than I should be French though & you also have Italian ancestry, so you should also feel some sort of affiliation to Italy too if you truly believe it is some sort of "natural pull" that is linking you to Ukraine, rather than just the fact your grandparents were from there.
Why do you keep insiting "you" are Ukrainian, you are not, you are American with Ukrainian ancestry. It is EXACTLY the same as me calling myself French, I really don't understand why you cannot see that...
Yes of course Ukrainians should strive to keep their national & cultural identity, I'm not suggesting otherwise, but you are American & have never even been to the country so it doesn't have all that much to do with you either, apart from ancestry...
But the fact remains you ARE American, as as your parents. It seems you are mixing the two up, it seems you believe any ancestral heritage is all that makes you who you are, but it is only part of that. You were born & brought up in America, so your main cultural identity, as well as your citizenship is American. You can have a closeness & feel tied to Ukraine, but any other concept of you feeling you belong to Ukraine is entirely of your own choosing.
He's fixated on this Ukrainian identity, he won't take no for answer. Don't understand the principal of it, he's an American.. he's living 5,000 miles away from Kiev why should he care what's going on over there?
You still don't explain why you should be more Ukrainian than I should be French though & you also have Italian ancestry, so you should also feel some sort of affiliation to Italy too if you truly believe it is some sort of "natural pull" that is linking you to Ukraine, rather than just the fact your grandparents were from there.
Okay. Maybe there's some "pull," as it were, and that's fine, but I'd describe my affiliation with Italianness as existing on a meta-ethnic level. In other words, it's not my ethnicity, but there is an ancestral connection nonetheless. Even beyond that, you cannot straight up compare Ukraine and Italy as nations. Italians are highly regional.
So there is no conflict. Really, I wouldn't even care to change my ancestry. My relationship with either heritage is totally different. Matter of fact, were a future conflict to arise between Italy & Croatia (there are Croatian territories that Italian irredentists might want), I'd favor Croatia because of their pro-Ukrainianness, and similar experience with Serbian aggression.
As for your French ancestry, it would seem very unlikely that you'd naturally think of yourself as French when your "British" (English, I presume) ancestry is three-quarters. So you're more English than anything else.
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Why do you keep insiting "you" are Ukrainian
Well, I'm certainly not going to stop doing so for you, or any other person, for that matter. Lol, as I'm typing this, the Ukrainian flag is hanging over my computer from the top of my desk.
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it seems you believe any ancestral heritage is all that makes you who you are
I never said that. It is, however, an essential part of Old World ethnic/national identities. Even before language. Ethnic Irishmen are no less Irish because they're linguistically Anglicized. Likewise, in some parts of Ukraine, there are ethnic Ukrainians who speak Russian natively. That doesn't change the fact that they're Ukrainians (not to be confused with the ethnic Russian minority in Ukraine). There are even ethnic Ukrainians beyond the borders of Ukraine in Russia, who speak Russian (Kuban has some left -- there are perhaps more in Siberia where many Ukrainians were deported by the despotic soviet regime).
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Originally Posted by GymFanatic
Ukrainian Government.
Lol. It's funny how you quoted my post, yet completed ignored the part where I refuted you on the citizenship point.
Last edited by snj90; 02-12-2017 at 02:20 PM..
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Regardless of the state Ukraine is in & the awful things that have happened in the country, it doesn't mean that you should feel more affiliated with Ukraine than I should with France. I mean England is right by France, I grew up on the south coast, with just the English channel separating me from my grandfathers country. We are on the same continent & share some cultural things too. You are thousands of miles away from Ukraine & you have never even been there...
