Gratitude, gratefulness meme in adoption (birth, options, parents, orphanage)
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I think that is the point though that we are trying to make is that yes, we can consider ourselves to be grateful, lucky etc for having good lives but that it is still OK to not be grateful for the circumstances that involved us being in the position where we needed to be adopted.
In regards to your analogy though, it could be like someone who survived a car crash without serious injuries but who may discover that the reason the car crashed was due to the brakes failing. Thus, the person might do their research and find out that the brakes failed due to a problem with the car and then discover that it was a not a lone incident in that particular model. Thus they might want to draw attention to the fact that brakes of their particular model car have failed quite a few times, causing accidents. However, while doing that, they might discover that lovers of that particular model of car are incensed that they are doing so and will say things like "I have a XX model and its brakes have NEVER failed". Others may tell them, "You are alive, you should just be grateful about that". Well the person probably is grateful about being alive and lucky they weren't killed but may still have genuine concerns about the fact that the brakes failed and have been known to fail in their model car. The lovers of that model car are being defensive because they don't want their favourite model car to be taken off the road, yet the person with the problems with the brakes just wants the problems fixed and knows that in fact, it is in the best interest of that particular model to fix the problem, not deny that there are problems.
On the other hand, there may not have been anything wrong with the car, it might have been just bad luck and, in fact, the person may well have been lucky to live. At the same time, if say for example, that person injured their knee and had problems, and every time they said to anyone about how sore their knee was because of that accident, everyone said "So your knee hurts? Why are you complaining? You could have died so you should be grateful that you only injured your knee" - the person might get a little bit sick and tired of being told they should be grateful for not having died.
The above is an analogy to adoption because the adoptee is expected to never have any negative feelings about any aspect of their relinquishment/adoption.
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Yes, I realize that which is why I originally said:
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I think a lot of adoptees are lucky to have been raised in the families they were raised in. I don't think all are lucky to have been adopted.
The analogy with the car crash was not an analogy to adoption. I was simply pointing out that one can still be lucky even though one has been unlucky in the past. Threefoldme argued that adoptees who grew up in good homes are not lucky because they were unlucky to have to have been adopted in the first place. I think everyone, including adoptees, who grew up in loving, caring, good homes are lucky. Many of us didn't so those who did are lucky because it could have been much, much worse. They could have grown up with a bio mom like mine.
Note that I'm not talking about gratitude. I'm talking about being lucky which I think is a completely separate issue.
Yes, I realize that which is why I originally said:
The analogy with the car crash was not an analogy to adoption. I was simply pointing out that one can still be lucky even though one has been unlucky in the past. Threefoldme argued that adoptees who grew up in good homes are not lucky because they were unlucky to have to have been adopted in the first place. I think everyone, including adoptees, who grew up in loving, caring, good homes are lucky. Many of us didn't so those who did are lucky because it could have been much, much worse. They could have grown up with a bio mom like mine.
I know it wasn't but I turned it into my own analogy.
Re bolded: Not necessarily true. The age of the child has nothing to do with it in CA. Majority of cases where family members come forward, it's way before TPR, most often it is at the point of or shortly after the initial removal from the home. Again, anything can happen. But usually when it gets to TPR, efforts to find a relative have been exhausted. Each state differs on how they handle this.
In CA (I can't speak for other states), babies aren't always placed in foster-only homes. Some infants are placed in adoptive family homes. It's a bit hard to explain and the best way to understand the nuances is to attend an orientation and/or complete an application for adoption. Internal procedures are always changing and new state laws may be implemented in the middle of a home study, etc (this happened to us). Now, couples are required to be approved for foster homes AND approved for adoption. However, you are not required to "foster" children to adopt; i.e., being a ward of the state, any child, at any age, is always considered a foster child first, until the adoption is finalized. This was the reason our county (maybe the entire state) changed the requirement from being approved for adoption only to being approved for foster and adoption.
I'd be cautious of what you read online because each state is different. Additionally, within every state, each county is different.
I know how the system works as I've spent years in it. I've also attended orientation meetings and read quite a bit so I understand the nuances pretty well. I realize that babies (or older kids) that are most likely going to be adopted will be placed with a family who wants to adopt so there doesn't have to be another move. I also understand that placement with a family member would happen pretty early on, way before TPR. I understand that the age of the kid doesn't matter but since you're adopting a baby that's what I brought up. My point was, though, that when you have a baby placed with you it's a foster placement and even though there may be a plan for adoption things can change and there are no guarantees that you will get to adopt that baby. You may get a baby and two months later it will be placed with an aunt who comes forward and is approved.
So, since there are no guarantees that the baby will be available for adoption at all why have you decided to adopt from the state as opposed to somewhere where it's more guaranteed? I'm just curious.
I don't think it's "inherently unlucky" to be adopted and I find that comment offensive.
That's not what she said. She said that having to be adopted is inherently unlucky, not that being adopted is. Maybe it would help to change the wording to relinquishment instead because that's really the unlucky part. You wouldn't say to anyone "you're so lucky that your parents couldn't keep you and had to relinquish you". I think that's what Threefoldme meant - that being born to parents who cannot or will not keep you is inherently unlucky. Being adopted is really a separate issue and one can of course be lucky to have been adopted or at the very least not unlucky. Do you see what I mean?
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People who walk around measuring their lives against others and speculating about how life could have been if they had grown up with their bio parents or how perfect it is to be raised by bio parents must be a sad lot. Life isn't perfect.
I would disagree with the wording "sad lot" but that aside I don't think anyone here is speculating about growing up with bio parents and thinking it would be perfect. At least I haven't heard anything of the kind.
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Many adopted kids are lucky. Luckier than kids who are killed by their own parents who kids who grow up with teen age girls as parents and are sexually abused by their boy friends.
Of course many adopted kids are lucky. Anyone who is brought up in a good family is lucky. Adoption per se doesn't make someone lucky though, the good family does which is a separate issue. Some adopted kids don't get great families. Like my old friend Charlotte who was adopted from Korea as a baby and at age 6 started to be molested by her dad which her mom later chose not to believe and chose the dad instead of her, leaving Charlotte to go to foster care.
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Well adjusted people who have been adopted are much happier than people who fantasize about being raised by people who were unable or unwilling to raise them.
One can of course have fantasies about stuff and still be well adjusted. Wondering about and wanting to meet bio parents isn't the same as fantasizing about being raised by them. It's often simple curiosity. My aunt (through marriage) who is adopted wanted to meet her bio mom as she was curious to see if anyone in her bio family looked like her and wanted to know where she got her dark complexion from. She also wanted to know why she was given up. That doesn't make her maladjusted, just curious about her genes just like millions of not adopted people who spend a bunch of time doing geneology. My aunt is very well adjusted and very close with her parents.
I'm just wondering, why is it a problem for you that some adopted people want to know who their bio parents are and may want to meet them? Why is that a bad thing to you?
That's not what she said. She said that having to be adopted is inherently unlucky, not that being adopted is. Maybe it would help to change the wording to relinquishment instead because that's really the unlucky part. You wouldn't say to anyone "you're so lucky that your parents couldn't keep you and had to relinquish you". I think that's what Threefoldme meant - that being born to parents who cannot or will not keep you is inherently unlucky. Being adopted is really a separate issue and one can of course be lucky to have been adopted or at the very least not unlucky. Do you see what I mean?
I would disagree with the wording "sad lot" but that aside I don't think anyone here is speculating about growing up with bio parents and thinking it would be perfect. At least I haven't heard anything of the kind.
Of course many adopted kids are lucky. Anyone who is brought up in a good family is lucky. Adoption per se doesn't make someone lucky though, the good family does which is a separate issue. Some adopted kids don't get great families. Like my old friend Charlotte who was adopted from Korea as a baby and at age 6 started to be molested by her dad which her mom later chose not to believe and chose the dad instead of her, leaving Charlotte to go to foster care.
One can of course have fantasies about stuff and still be well adjusted. Wondering about and wanting to meet bio parents isn't the same as fantasizing about being raised by them. It's often simple curiosity. My aunt (through marriage) who is adopted wanted to meet her bio mom as she was curious to see if anyone in her bio family looked like her and wanted to know where she got her dark complexion from. She also wanted to know why she was given up. That doesn't make her maladjusted, just curious about her genes just like millions of not adopted people who spend a bunch of time doing geneology. My aunt is very well adjusted and very close with her parents.
I'm just wondering, why is it a problem for you that some adopted people want to know who their bio parents are and may want to meet them? Why is that a bad thing to you?
Note - they don't regret their DECISION as you pointed out. However, it is possible to not regret their DECISION but to regret the CIRCUMSTANCES, usually adverse, that came about in their life where they needed to consider adoption. Do you really think many birthmothers say "I'm so thrilled my life was a mess when I got pregnant because if it hadn't been, then I wouldn't have had the opportunity to make an adoption plan for my child"? It is far more likely that the bmother regrets that their life was a mess but at the same time not regret making an adoption plan for their child.
Why are you assuming the birth mother's life is a mess? Maybe her birth control didn't work and she is a pre-med student and does not want to be a mother while in medical school. What if she is a honor-roll student who made a mistake and doesn't believe in abortion? These situations are real.
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Originally Posted by Lizita
I know how the system works as I've spent years in it. I've also attended orientation meetings and read quite a bit so I understand the nuances pretty well. I realize that babies (or older kids) that are most likely going to be adopted will be placed with a family who wants to adopt so there doesn't have to be another move. I also understand that placement with a family member would happen pretty early on, way before TPR. I understand that the age of the kid doesn't matter but since you're adopting a baby that's what I brought up. My point was, though, that when you have a baby placed with you it's a foster placement and even though there may be a plan for adoption things can change and there are no guarantees that you will get to adopt that baby. You may get a baby and two months later it will be placed with an aunt who comes forward and is approved.
So, since there are no guarantees that the baby will be available for adoption at all why have you decided to adopt from the state as opposed to somewhere where it's more guaranteed? I'm just curious.
Ok, now I'm completely confused as to why you asked your previous questions then. You seemed to be asking about infant adoptions in California (your location reads Chicago). All I can say is we have enough assurance to continue as we've planned with adopting through our state. I don't know what you mean by "no guarantees."
Regarding our reason to go through our state: I have family members and friends who adopted via state agencies, their experiences helped us make our decision to do the same. Many of them adopted their children who were placed with them as infants. Our county social services office has a pretty good reputation and so far it has proven to be true.
Why are you assuming the birth mother's life is a mess? Maybe her birth control didn't work and she is a pre-med student and does not want to be a mother while in medical school. What if she is a honor-roll student who made a mistake and doesn't believe in abortion? These situations are real.
They are still adverse circumstances. The pre-med student presumably took birth control so she wouldn't get pregnant and thus getting pregnant when she did meant she got pregnant at a time that was not ideal for parenting. The honor roll student made a mistake which is something she might rather not have done. Aforementioned people would still no doubt like a counsellor that cared about them and their child as individuals.
Btw I still don't think many would say "I'm so thrilled that my birth control failed because if it hadn't, then I wouldn't have had the opportunity to make an adoption plan for a child"? or "I'm so thrilled I made a mistake because if I hadn't then I wouldn't have had the opportunity to make an adoption plan for my child"? Having said that, I do know of bmoms in OPEN adoptions who say that they are glad that their birth control failed or mistake made because they have grown to love that child that was born out of their mistake/birth control failure but that they don't regret that they placed that child because they weren't in a position to be able to parent at the time. As I said before, there are often shades of grey rather than everything being just black and white.
They are still adverse circumstances. The pre-med student presumably took birth control so she wouldn't get pregnant and thus getting pregnant when she did meant she got pregnant at a time that was not ideal for parenting. The honor roll student made a mistake which is something she might rather not have done. Aforementioned people would still no doubt like a counsellor that cared about them and their child as individuals.
Btw I still don't think many would say "I'm so thrilled that my birth control failed because if it hadn't, then I wouldn't have had the opportunity to make an adoption plan for a child"? or "I'm so thrilled I made a mistake because if I hadn't then I wouldn't have had the opportunity to make an adoption plan for my child"? Having said that, I do know of bmoms in OPEN adoptions who say that they are glad that their birth control failed or mistake made because they have grown to love that child that was born out of their mistake/birth control failure but that they don't regret that they placed that child because they weren't in a position to be able to parent at the time. As I said before, there are often shades of grey rather than everything being just black and white.
As for those who have no wish to see their baby again and hope that they never make contact,I would say that they probably regret getting pregnant and having to go through 9 months of the symptoms of pregnancy. A miscarriage would no doubt have been a blessing.
Threefoldme argued that adoptees who grew up in good homes are not lucky because they were unlucky to have to have been adopted in the first place. I think everyone, including adoptees, who grew up in loving, caring, good homes are lucky.
I just wanted to clarify that I am not arguing that adoptees are not lucky to grow up in a good home with a loving family -- I am saying that I view that separately from being lucky they were adopted.
For example many adoptees I know have said they feel something similar to this: "I am lucky that I was raised so well, but it was not lucky that I had to be adopted. I would have been luckier if I was born into my adoptive family."
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Originally Posted by Lizita
That's not what she said. She said that having to be adopted is inherently unlucky, not that being adopted is.
Thanks to everyone who pointed this out.
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Maybe it would help to change the wording to relinquishment instead because that's really the unlucky part. You wouldn't say to anyone "you're so lucky that your parents couldn't keep you and had to relinquish you". I think that's what Threefoldme meant - that being born to parents who cannot or will not keep you is inherently unlucky. Being adopted is really a separate issue and one can of course be lucky to have been adopted or at the very least not unlucky. Do you see what I mean?
That is what I meant. I admit that for me it is difficult to separate relinquishment & adoption, because one cannot exist without the other. I understand people who are adopted after being in care for an extended period of time may view them much more separately than I do, but reality is that in addition to relinquishment, adoption can present its own unique challenges for people.
Whether those people view that as being unlucky really depends on the individual.
Last edited by thethreefoldme; 04-29-2013 at 11:03 AM..
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