Why would you be against the Medical Marijuana prop? (buy, pharmacy)

[Howard Roark]

And New Zealand liberalized its laws and allows brothels.

Legalized brothels

Also Canada's court's ruled its own prostitution laws unconstitutional.

Originally Posted by rich67

Amsterdam closing half of its famous pot cafes and brothels - The Real Scoop

[Howard Roark]

Then there's the late Carl Sagan, avid marijuana smoker...

US: Wire: Biographer: Sagan Smoked Marijuana

[rich67]

Originally Posted by Bondurant

Also, it's ironic that a guy from Tampa, of all places, has complaints about organized crime in Amsterdam.

Higher crime rate Amsterdam or Tampa?

Bigger rep. for organized crime Amsterdam or Tampa?

It looks like crime is higher where prohibition rules.

Have you ever actually comprehended anything you have ever read, or do you put your own spin on it to suit your needs? Sheesh.
I said NOTHING about a comparison between CRIME RATES per se between Amsterdam and ANY city. What I pointed out, if you clicked on the links, was that ORGANIZED CRIME has taken a foothold in Amsterdam that is an unfortunate SIDE EFFECT of the legalization of not only marijuana (to a lesser degree) but prostitution.
The point I was TRYING to make, is that this kind of legalization still breeds crime, it does not ERADICATE it...I made no comparisons at all between US crime and crime abroad...each has its own issues and can't be compared to each other, but the MODEL can.
And this: "It looks like crime is higher where prohibition rules" is purely an ignorant statement. OK, so we prohibit cocaine and heroin too, should we just open the floodgates on that as well? Oxycodone is controlled, not prohibited, and the abuse level of that drug is at epic proportions, especially here in Florida! You don't think that the same will happen in marijuana is controlled and not prohibited? You don't think people will break into medicinal marijuana shops and steal stuff? You don't think they will re sell it to the sap down the street who can't get a script? You don't think that people will still grow it in their homes and sell it to undercut the pharmacies? What good will it possibly do?
All this is is and excuse for hippies and waste-of-space stoners to get one step closer to legalizing the whole thing so they can walk around in a perpetual haze. You think our society is becoming less productive now? Just wait until everyone and their brother can go out and smoke a bowl in public...we'll be the laughing stock of the whole world. And the crime rate will still be the same, and there will be even more reasons for people to exploit the legalization of it. Pointless.

[rich67]

And regardless of how any of you feel against the "war on drugs", it will exist as long as this stuff is listed as ILLEGAL, which it most certainly is currently. And for those of you who continue to break the law, which I guess has become nothing more than a mere "suggestion" to some, here's some food for thought.
You pay taxes to keep the war going (providing you have a job and can hold one down that doesn't require random drug tests). Yet you consume the product that you are paying to eradicate. Now, you may be buying hydro from the dude down the street, but that loser sells it to other people who not only smoke marijuana but use harder drugs as well, that breeds the crime in your neighborhood that you gripe and complain about. The drug dealer has lots of cash, so he gets jacked by his customers who may end up killing him, and causing you to pay taxes to prosecute and house him in the prisons. The police and feds that you pay taxes for go out and fight the war for you, while you sit on your a** and puff away. They get killed in the line of duty when they try to enforce the laws that they are hired to enforce (like the guy who recently got his head chopped off investigating the shooting in Texas of the two jetskiiers). Anyone who thinks a marijuana smuggler is harmless lives under a rock or is so stoned they can't think straight.
So, just because you sit in your house and puff away, you think you aren't harming anyone? STOOOOPID. Unless you smoke your own home grown and don't sell it, you contribute behind the scenes to all the crap that goes on in society. Ignorance is bliss, I guess. Maybe that skunk weed will put you further into a coma of ignorance. Puff away.

[BillR1]

Originally Posted by rich67

All this is is and excuse for hippies and waste-of-space stoners to get one step closer to legalizing the whole thing so they can walk around in a perpetual haze. You think our society is becoming less productive now? Just wait until everyone and their brother can go out and smoke a bowl in public...we'll be the laughing stock of the whole world. And the crime rate will still be the same, and there will be even more reasons for people to exploit the legalization of it. Pointless.

VERY true!
Well written.

[Arizona Mike]

I'm opposed to the Medical Marijuana proposition on libertarian grounds.

Because we don't live in a laissez-faire world. There are economic costs to poor life decisions, and those get passed down to ME to pay by taxation, as well as the social costs that make my city and state a less pleasant place to stay. If we lived in a truly libertarian society, if you overslept from toking all night and got fired from your job, if you crashed your car because you were high, if you have chronic (no pun intended) pulmonary problems from inhaling a burning weed day after day for years, it would be a lick on you - no one would bail you out for your poor lifestyle decisions. If that was the case, I wouldn't care what you put in your body.

But we don't live in that world. Dopers tend to claim libertarian status when it suits their ends, but will sponge off the public dole, ER, and county health system like crazy if it means they can spend more money on dope. When their kids require special ed because mom smokes more marijuana than Tommy Chong (and probably did throughout her pregnancy because, it's, like, organic, you know) and ignores them while she's sleeping in the afternoon on the living room couch and doesn't make sure they do their homework, I'm going to have to pay the bill. When they can''t get decent jobs and go to jail because they had such mucked-up parents, I will pay for it.

And the regulatory, policing, and enforcement needs that arise from the MedMarijuana initiative are an unfunded mandate, so those needs will require diversion of budgetary funds (i.e., MY MONEY) from other more deserving programs that will suffer.

It'll probably pass, but screw up Arizona so badly that the next referendum will be to repeal it, and that will probably pass by a wide margin.

For all the talk among Internet dopers that "Prohibition totallly failed," there is less discussion of Alaska's failed experiment in decriminalizing marijuana in the 1970s. Although marijuana use by minors was still illegal, marijuana use by minors skyrocketed and the marijuana was recriminalized.

[kdog]

Originally Posted by Arizona Mike

For all the talk among Internet dopers that "Prohibition totallly failed," there is less discussion of Alaska's failed experiment in decriminalizing marijuana in the 1970s. Although marijuana use by minors was still illegal, marijuana use by minors skyrocketed and the marijuana was recriminalized.

You sure about that? That's not what I read:

“Alaska citizens have the right to possess less than four ounces of marijuana in their home for personal use” (Noy, 83 P. 3d at 540). Under Ravin, the right to possess less than four ounces of marijuana at home, for personal use, is protected by the Alaska Constitutions guarantee of the right to privacy. A statute that re-criminalized marijuana possession was declared unconstitutional by Noy. Marijuana decriminalization and re-criminalization bills have been passed and repealed over the years, but the constitutional guarantee stands."

Source: MARIJUANA DECRIMINALIZATION

So does that throw the rest of your arguments out the window, or what?

[Howard Roark]

Arizona Mike,

No...You do not oppose the medical marijuana on libertarian grounds.

That we don't live in a laissez-faire world (yet) should not mean we need to maintain statist laws.

I'm an abolitionist of statism, not a gradualist.

[Bondurant]

@Rich67

You keep mentioning organized crime in Amsterdam as a reason we should not end prohibition. I'm pointing out the irony that your hometown is one of the mafia meccas of the United States where prohibition is king.

You seem paranoid. If pot was legalized do you really think our streets would be overtaken by stoners? It's not like that in Amsterdam and it wouldn't be like that here.

The War on Drugs is a farce. It will never end as it keeps the black market thriving. Prohibition didn't stop alcohol and it won't stop drugs. Hell, Dubya and Obama were both druggies in their younger years.

For the record the only drug I use is alcohol and only on a social basis. Also for the record booze and tobacco kill more than illegal drugs.

Legalize it.

[jimj]

Originally Posted by Bondurant

The problem really is that it's illegal for any reason.

If I smoking pot in the privacy of my home for any reason, medical or otherwise, why do you care. My life. My body. My choice. The risk of killing brain cells, lung cancer, bad breath...it's my choice to make.

I don't care if an adult chooses to use, I do care if kids do same as with booze. I would have no problem with tobacco companies selling it as long as the penalties for under age use are enforced.
My problem is pot advocates wrapping what they "really" want (which is total legalization) in the cloak of "medical use" which we all know has been a sham program and a huge joke from the git-go.

If you want medical pot then regulate it just like other narcotics with the same penalty for misuse, dispense it from a "real" pharmacy instead of a glorified head shop etc.
If your real intent is legal pot for all then regulate it like booze and restrict where you can smoke it as tight or tighter than they now do with tobacco since second hand pot smoke can get others high...