We STILL are at the bottom on education spending (Chandler: leasing, health insurance)

[Burning Madolf]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

This is the main reason education spending is so low here. Labor costs (teachers) are low. If we pay teachers more, do we get better education?

On the other hand, anyone who goes into an AZ school can see the effects of penny pinching. There are no computers in the classroom or the ones there look like discards from the 1990s. Books are held together with duct tape and are several revisions behind. There are often not enough textbooks to go around. There are no study and work materials unless parents donated them. Teachers have to buy things like paper and glue for their students out of their pockets. And, this is in the affluent schools. One can only imagine what it is like in the poor districts.

Arizona's business leaders have been screaming for improvements to education for decades. They correctly argue that the sorry state of education in Arizona is an impediment to growth and attracting top talent. The message is ignored and the schools sink lower and lower in performance standards.

I blame most of it on baby boomers - the most selfish generation in the history of humanity. In contrast to today's kids, they had every advantage in the best schools of their time. But now, it's all about cutting their taxes. Their motto seems to be "I got mine, Moderator cut: inappropriate." Sadly, we have way too many boomers coming to AZ because of the sunny weather.

Petitions were submitted to put a permanent sales tax to fund education on the ballot. I haven't seen the measure, but if it is the same thing that Brewer did to us on the temporary tax (promised it would go to education, but then gave it away in tax cuts to businesses), I will vote against it.

I guarantee you that more money will not lead to more and better qualified teachers and better educated kids. It is far more likely that extra money will be spent on bringing in "gurus'' from other states and trying to reinvent the wheel. This is what failing schools all over the country have been doing for decades now and they have been spending more and more money every year.

You can blame the boomers all you want but educational spending has gone way up over the past 3 or 4 decades and the results stink.

Again, it all starts at home, tv, internet, video games, cell phones, when does a kid have time to study with so many important toys to play with?

[mike b1]

Washington D.C. spends the highest amount in the country on education and has the worst schools....North Dakota spends very little and has excellent schools. It's a mistake to equate spending/money with good schools. There are cultural/societal reasons why all kids don't learn equally. Why do Asian kids do the best no matter where they attend. Also, most studies show differences in intelligence amoung ethnic groups, doesn't mean they are inferior, just don't do as well in school. Sometimes we don't like the truth, but it's still the truth.

[Prodigal Native]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

Petitions were submitted to put a permanent sales tax to fund education on the ballot. I haven't seen the measure, but if it is the same thing that Brewer did to us on the temporary tax (promised it would go to education, but then gave it away in tax cuts to businesses), I will vote against it.

That's one of the issues, the money gets voted in, but the legislature and our governor reprogram other money so the tax increases end up keeping education funding nearly flat and then people grumble because the tax didn't do anything beneficial with respect to schools or education.

Once the tax is about to expire we are warned that if it goes away our education funding will drop below where it was before the tax increase and so we have to keep it in place. I suppose making it a permanent tax save this last step, but the first part holds true.

[Craziaskowboi]

Be glad that Arizona is at the bottom of this list. It means that administrative salaries and legacy costs are low, because that's where the lion's share of the money goes. Besides, throwing money at problems isn't necessarily a good way to solve them. Building a state-of-the-art school doesn't magically make unmotivated kids want to learn. If anything, it just seems like a way for school districts to show off half the time, and the unmotivated kids would just break the stuff anyway.

[robabeatle]

Look fact of the matter is, paying $30K for someone with a M.S. does not cut it. Do you really think that $30K is too much money??

I do not think that "throwing money" at the situation is the fix. This is a seriously complex issue. But one simple thing is true, the pay offered by TUSD to yours truly is a non-starter.

I know of talented teachers that have left this state to make more than double in other states.

[stephen431]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

This is the main reason education spending is so low here. Labor costs (teachers) are low. If we pay teachers more, do we get better education?

On the other hand, anyone who goes into an AZ school can see the effects of penny pinching. There are no computers in the classroom or the ones there look like discards from the 1990s. Books are held together with duct tape and are several revisions behind. There are often not enough textbooks to go around. There are no study and work materials unless parents donated them. Teachers have to buy things like paper and glue for their students out of their pockets. And, this is in the affluent schools. One can only imagine what it is like in the poor districts.

Arizona's business leaders have been screaming for improvements to education for decades. They correctly argue that the sorry state of education in Arizona is an impediment to growth and attracting top talent. The message is ignored and the schools sink lower and lower in performance standards.

I blame most of it on baby boomers - the most selfish generation in the history of humanity. In contrast to today's kids, they had every advantage in the best schools of their time. But now, it's all about cutting their taxes. Their motto seems to be "I got mine, Moderator cut: inappropriate." Sadly, we have way too many boomers coming to AZ because of the sunny weather.

Petitions were submitted to put a permanent sales tax to fund education on the ballot. I haven't seen the measure, but if it is the same thing that Brewer did to us on the temporary tax (promised it would go to education, but then gave it away in tax cuts to businesses), I will vote against it.

I wholeheartedly agree with all of this.

Moderator cut: off topic

I'm not voting for that tax increase either. They fooled me once. We passed that tax and as the OP realizes, we're still at the bottom on education spending. I'm tired of paying 10% sales tax on nearly everything just so they could fund a "jobs bill" that does nothing but cut taxes and offer public handouts for their cronies.

[AZgarden]

A guy was at the gas station getting signatures to put the tax on the ballot as permanent. When I said "no" to signing, and I did so because I am retired and need every penny I get, he gave me the guilt trip and said " Don't you want the kids to have books in their classrooms?" I walked away thinking maybe they need to find other ways to get the money to the kids, rather than increasing sales taxes to us peons. The money is there, but its going to administrators, and other line items that are not needed. Just try to get an aide for a kid with autism in this state. You have to fight tooth and nail. WHY are we still 48th ?What is going on?

[CheyDee]

I never had kids in AZ schools, so I have a few questions. Do teachers teach 12 months/year here or do they have 2 months of "summer" off? Are they off for intercession or spring break and also for extra time at holidays, (meaning instead of being off Thanksgiving and the next day, are they off the entire holiday week or more? How about around Christmas/NewYear's?) Are all teachers minimally prepared with Master's degrees or are some teaching with Bachelor's? Are teacher's raises merit based or are they automatic, based upon time worked? Can they "give themselves a raise" by taking additional college/continuing education credits?

I would need answers to these questions before I could consider whether or not $30k/year might be a reasonable salary.

I also have questions about the administrative structure of the schools here. Many decades ago when I went to school, each school had a Principal and an Assistant Principal. I remember someone telling me (in another state) that their schools now had a Principal, several Vice Principals, etc. Are we top heavy like that too? I would think with just a Principal and Assistant Principal, more funding goes towards the schools themselves, rather than to salaries of Vice Principals to the Vice Principal and their extra administrative staff, etc.

[robabeatle]

Most schools that I know of run on a 10 month schedule. Many teachers work the other two months to get by.

Most holidays are off.

Teachers are required to have a bachelor's degree at a minimum. State schools require certification as well. (TUSD)

Raises depend...

The fact of the matter is that how can you expect $30K to entice great teacher to teach in AZ when they can make more than twice that elsewhere. That is the question. So many people want to run schools like a business and I have no problem with that in many regards but fact of the matter is that if you pay low you will not get talent.

From your questions, I gather that you have not been a teacher and do not have depth of understanding in the complex issues at hand.And really why should you, not knocking you, but please, please, I am so tired of people spewing out "well I feel this way or that way" no matter what the experts say. Fine, go have heart surgery by a non specialist... Also, let me know if I am wrong, but you seem to have a disdain for teachers.

To note: I firmly believe that education needs a serious overhaul. That does not mean we pay teachers less. I think that certification is pretty much useless and that content knowledge plus people skills (which are hard to learn in a class) make a great teach, if I am simplifying things greatly. Get rid of bloated administration.

[robabeatle]

If you want to understand Rumi, you should at least read some of his works right? If you want to reflect and remark upon a huge institution such as the educational institution of this country, the least you can do is a little background reading, right? I mean I hope your teachers taught you that you should research any topic that you wish to discuss intelligently.

For starters:
120 years of American Education:

http://0-nces.ed.gov.opac.acc.msmc.edu/pubs93/93442.pdf