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Old 01-12-2012, 11:06 AM
 
12 posts, read 9,093 times
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Being from Scandinavia - Norway, Sweden and Denmark are among the most secular western nations in the world. We have large number of Atheists/Agnostics with religious people being the minority. However, our holidays and culture are still Christian. Most of our national holidays are religious Christian with few secular ones'.

Despite us having very large nonbelievers population, we are never against the religious people. Sweden also has separation of church and state.

Our public schools still teaches religion, and on some high holidays many schools take students to churches. On St. Lucia's Day, students sing also about Jesus Christ. Many schools also teaches bible lessons after class if students are interested.

From what I've seen and read, it seems like Atheists in the U.S. are very Anti-religion. They try to take away all religious things in America, despite the U.S. having 80% Christians and only 1.6% Atheists/Agnostics. Yes, around 16% are Non-religious but that does not mean they don't believe in God, they are just not members of any religious places. So America could be considered a religious nation.

Why not leave religious people alone and let them keep or make religion in the U.S. as much as possible.... ignore and laugh at them (My tips).
Yes, I understand it could be annoying when religious people get mad and angry at nonbelievers, but if you guys ignore them then they wouldn't say anything hopefully. In Scandinavia I never heard any fight between religious and non-religious people at all, maybe because us non-believers don't care what they do in our country, because we like Christian holidays and culture.
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Old 01-12-2012, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Ohio
18,006 posts, read 13,238,246 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lille Ida View Post
Why not leave Christians alone and let them keep or make religion in the U.S. as much as possible.... ignore and laugh at them.
While people are dying?

We have political leaders who make decisions based or influenced by religion which results in wars and death, and you say laugh at that. That's very interesting.

Perhaps when you are getting bombed by the US and having your regime changed, you'll be thinking differently.

We have political leaders who enact laws and make policy based or influenced by religion.

We have employers who hire and fire based or influenced by religion.

We have academicians who posit theories that are foisted on people based or influenced on religion, and that blinds people to the truth so that we do not truly understand our past or waste money (often tax payer money) pursuing fruitless scientific endeavors.

All of those things have a negative impact on me personally, as well as millions of other people here and abroad.

Shall I continue?

Not leaving christians alone...


Mircea
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Old 01-12-2012, 11:18 AM
 
12 posts, read 9,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
While people are dying?

We have political leaders who make decisions based or influenced by religion which results in wars and death, and you say laugh at that. That's very interesting.

Perhaps when you are getting bombed by the US and having your regime changed, you'll be thinking differently.

We have political leaders who enact laws and make policy based or influenced by religion.

We have employers who hire and fire based or influenced by religion.

We have academicians who posit theories that are foisted on people based or influenced on religion, and that blinds people to the truth so that we do not truly understand our past or waste money (often tax payer money) pursuing fruitless scientific endeavors.

All of those things have a negative impact on me personally, as well as millions of other people here and abroad.

Shall I continue?

Not leaving christians alone...


Mircea
I understand that. But you cannot do anything about why Americans are very religious which I feel is sad. Maybe it's part of American culture being religious? Don't know.

Why do people say what they believe in, at work or in politics? Religion shouldn't matter.
Maybe because religious people are afraid of their rights being taken away?

Why do American Atheist care if God in mentioned in public places? In Scandinavia we have bunch of Christian holidays and nobody of us care less. We love our days off. They used to take us to church on Christmas and Easter, despite not believe in God we all still went and had fun to skip classes.
Many secular Scandinavians still baptist their children and get married in church, but most of them don't believe in God.
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Old 01-12-2012, 11:37 AM
 
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Atheists come in all sizes and I might myself not agree with all the aims or objectives of American Atheists. I may not always agree with Dawkins' uncompromising attitude towards even reasonable religion. That's because we are not a dogma. We all agree only on one thing - we do not believe in any gods. The present need is to make people aware that the religious claims are not valid.

Once we have that on board, we can discuss what to do about religious festivals and the like. I would argue that it would be a bad move to try to excise all religious legacy from our past. I do not want to be a godless Taliban, blowing up Jesus statues.

Keep Christmas, we don't believe in Jesus any more than Santa. Keep the tree. It's Pagan anyway. Keep Easter, it's about eggs and fruit buns not about the resurrection myth.

Even keep religion, for those who need it. Just keep it where it belongs - in its own temples.
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Old 01-12-2012, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
3,334 posts, read 5,115,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lille Ida View Post
In Scandinavia I never heard any fight between religious and non-religious people at all, maybe because us non-believers don't care what they do in our country, because we like Christian holidays and culture.
Not exactly accurate. There are always the Scandanavian Black Metal guys who were burning down Christian churches there in Norway (among other things) weren't there?

I think the animosity between "Christians" and atheists in the United States needs to be defined a little more. I think it fair to say that this animosity between "Christians" and atheists is really more about animosity between Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christians and atheists (and just about everyone else). Hell, I'm not an atheist, but I can say that I have no love for Fundamentalist/Evangelicals either.

These people are a major pain in the neck and much of it stems from their incessant proselytizing and attempts to shape national, state and local policy in their image and desire for everyone to think and act as them. Other kinds of Christians, Roman Catholics and mainstream Protestants for example, do not receive the ire that Fundamentalist/Evangelicals do because they pretty much leave everyone alone and are, in turn, left alone to do what they wish.

Last edited by Fullback32; 01-12-2012 at 12:16 PM..
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:02 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
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Honestly, it's probably because religion in Europe does not have nearly the reach and effect upon those societies as it does here and therefore doesn't have the "opportunity" to personally offended so many people.

If you look, you'll find most rabid atheists were somewhow wronged by religion (some more literally than others) and feel they need to fight against the source of those perceived wrongs. That makes 'em especially loud.
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:13 PM
 
16,301 posts, read 24,228,573 times
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Originally Posted by Lille Ida View Post
Why not leave religious people alone and let them keep or make religion in the U.S. as much as possible.... ignore and laugh at them (My tips).
That would be an ideal way to deal with them, in fact I often laugh at them, sometime I simply stare in disbelief at the absurdity of their beliefs and actions.

But they cannot and should not be ignored, for they are the greatest threat to individual liberties and the future of our society as a whole.

They have successfully imposed their ignorance born in ancient superstition into our schools, society and laws. Next spring several states (mine included) will have an initiative on the ballots to impose their religious hatred on a minority by changing our state constitution. It has occurred in other states already.

They also demand that their ignorance be taught as fact in US schools, and are actively working toward that goal
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:33 PM
 
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Simple answer.

Look at what they are up against.
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Vermont
10,089 posts, read 10,606,893 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lille Ida View Post
From what I've seen and read, it seems like Atheists in the U.S. are very Anti-religion. They try to take away all religious things in America, despite the U.S. having 80% Christians and only 1.6% Atheists/Agnostics.

. . .


Why not leave religious people alone and let them keep or make religion in the U.S. as much as possible.... ignore and laugh at them (My tips).

I don't want to be too offensive, but you really don't know what you're talking about.

Atheists in the United States, even the most militant atheists, do not "try to take away all religious things in America." That's just false.

Atheists do "leave religious people alone and let them keep or make religion in the U.S. as much as possible."

As long as religion is a private matter for believers we have absolutely no problem. Where we have a problem is where the religious majority (and the religious extremists aren't even the majority) is constantly trying to make their religion more powerful not by persuading their fellow Americans that they are right, but by using the power of government to impose their religious views on the entire country.

Examples of this include the insertion of "under god" into the Pledge of Allegiance, putting "in god we trust" on currency and adopting it as the official motto of the United States, and forcing public schools to teach the religious doctrine of creationism/intelligent design in government-run schools.

You may know that the United States has a Constitution that provides that the government shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, yet the extremely conservative Republican Party, and the slightly less conservative Democratic Party are all too willing to give religion the dominant place not only in public affairs but also in government actions.

If religious, or religio-political groups would content themselves with practicing their religions in peace, and would refrain from using the government to impose their religious views on the rest of the country, there would be little conflict, and the situation here would probably look more like what you have in Scandinavia.

Finally, although you may not know it, many of the people who are opposed to the religious domination of the government are religious themselves, but consider that it not only violates our Constitution but is also bad public policy to use government to harm and disadvantage religious minorities. There are still some who remember that any oppression that can be visited on one minority group can, when the political balance of power changes, be visited on another minority group. The main target these days seems to be Muslims, and to some extent atheists, but in our history religious bigotry has also targeted Catholics, Jews, practitioners of Santeria, and undoubtedly other religious minorities.

For as long as the religious groups here try to use the government to impose their will on us atheists, and we recognize we are a relatively small minority, the conflict will continue.
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:57 PM
 
8,680 posts, read 12,841,822 times
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Originally Posted by Lille Ida View Post
Sweden also has separation of church and state.
Do your evangelical Christians try to blur that line as much as ours? Do you have anti-abortion crusaders bombing clinics in the name of their religion and trying to turn their religion into the law of the land?

Is there a debate about whether to teach "Intelligent Design" in your public schools?

Do you have religious fundamentalists blathering on about the sanctity of marriage and trying to institutionalize discrimination against homosexuals?

Are your politicians willing to listen to the fundamentalists and give the fundamentalists power over everything from health care to education?

Do you have people like this idiot running for Prime Minister? And are they actually taken seriously enough to raise money for their campaigns?

[youtube]0PAJNntoRgA[/youtube]

Serious questions. I have a friend who is married to a Swede, but that's the extent of my exposure to your country. From what she tells me, it's very conformist there. Maybe your Christian holidays are just an example of conformity by the masses, a way of taking the path of least resistance. And maybe your atheists have the luxury of going along with it because your Christians don't behave like some of ours do. If your fundamentalists do behave like ours, maybe they get written off and ignored for the extremists they are, instead of being given power in a government in a nation that claims to hold dear the concept of separation of church and state.
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