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Shown below are examples of demonizing and otherizing.
where others are called "truly evil" with "rancor and disdain and castigation"
where your own views matter, but other views do not
"their many and varied reasons are totally irrelevant"
So to you, the view of anti-vaxers matter, but the view of those who may then die or become seriously ill because of the increased spread of Corona do not?
But that would require you to (gasp) actually consider and acknowledging the view points of actual experts.
here's the thing. if someone has an anger problem, for instance, and has a litany of all the things that "make them angry" and blames all those things for "making them angry"
the problem is not "all those things."
the problem is the person has an anger problem, and does not take responsibility for dealing with the anger problem that originates within them and is owned by them and is wholly and completely theirs.
So it is our problem when we are angry about drunk drivers / anti-vaxers / neo-Nazis, and not that drunk drivers / anti-vaxers / neo-Nazis exist?
and since i work in a medical center, i know first hand and listen to on a daily basis the reasons people give and have and consider for choosing not to get the vaccine. yes, including doctors and nurses. yes, including scientists and researchers. yes including patients and caregivers and families.
that's what i mean about an unwillingness and intolerance and inability to acknowledge and recognize and consider that people have reasons for choosing not to get the vaccine, including those who work in healthcare and in the medical field. The knee jerk reaction instead, for instance above, is annoyance and irritation and denial and dismissal. or as in an earlier post #3454 anger and cursing and swearing and name calling.
That is not unwillingness and intolerance and inability, nor is it a knee jerk reaction, it is recognizing the fact that you simply assert things but can not back up your claims.
If you or others on this thread are unaware of the numerous reasons people have, which appears to be the case, then maybe start a thread on that and learn something. But that might require (gasp) actually considering and acknowledging other viewpoints. That does not appear to be a strong suit in this thread.
This is a great real time example of how I talk about god beliefs.
you re mixing up ideas here. The actuall position and how you feel about people being negative.
Understanding a persons view is one. We all try to do that. Thats a good, base, starting point.
So how do we tell who is actually not trying? and being more self centered than not?
Well, for engineering mind sets we put in values and see what the outcome is. Something that fundy think type atheist and theist have to avoid. And certainly not people fighting religion only won't do when using anti-god as a weapon.
Here the values are "Why I got vaccinated" and "why I am not getting vaccinated". You focused on me saying "yo knuckle head ..." when talking about vaccinated. I am focused on reasons given for not getting vaccinated.
SO you said "We might focus on understanding people.". And thats a good general position to take for us. Now we are putting a value in to see who is actually understanding people. We are putting in an actual claim of "vaccination.
so we have to compaer ... and you can help me close this gap.
tzaph ... "we need to be respectful of people ..."
vs
"[Insert reason for not getting vaccinated.]"
which one do I lean towards? How do the positions relate?
Legitimate reasons to decline a vaccine: 1) allergy to a vaccine ingredient, 2) severe immune system compromise. #2 is people taking HIV treatment or chemotherapy. I watched a doctor tell a COPD patient with severe asthma to get the first shot that became available.
Cut the nonsense and get your shots,
Now, back to talking about Atheism and Agnosticism.
Legitimate reasons to decline a vaccine: 1) allergy to a vaccine ingredient, 2) severe immune system compromise. #2 is people taking HIV treatment or chemotherapy. I watched a doctor tell a COPD patient with severe asthma to get the first shot that became available.
Cut the nonsense and get your shots,
Now, back to talking about Atheism and Agnosticism.
Yearly vaccines are the coming norm, and no one needs to question anything for the good of those who survive.
So in relation to how we tackle beliefs (in a forum about beliefs none the less) about atheism and agnosticism.
Forming a belief using evidence and commonsense seems logical to most people. Wanting to help others is also a primary concern to most of us here. Forming, or even worse, knowingly expressing a belief based on how one feels about religion in order not to give the "enemy" any thing they could use against our beliefs is deceitful.
The past few post showed how an emotional position of "we shouldn't be mean" can get in the way of logically evaluating a claim of "we need to get vaccinated if we can." for reliability. They are both equally reliable in the proper context.
So now an atheist has posted that their family members have not gotten vaccinated.
i am curious elyn (or anyone) how do you feel about labeling people who have not gotten vaccinated (in this case all your family members) as "irresponsible" "not among the intelligent" "evil" "probably a Trump supporter" "a clear and present danger to the population" "ignorant" "intransigent" "unconscionable" "genuine harm to others" grouped together with "racists and anti-Semites" "heinous" "dangerous" "negligence" "rancor" "disdain" "castigation" "truly evil"
Thus far that has been the knee jerk reaction on this thread. and with no recognition or acknowledgement of the many and various reasons why people may not have gotten the vaccine.
It is very hard if not impossible to discuss a question like the one you are asking without forever having to deal with all these "labels" that are immediately thrown into the air every time someone wants to have such a discussion in a civil adult intelligent manner.
Why, for example, don't you simply ask your question and/or explain what some of the various reasons for not getting a vaccine might be, so we can consider them? Perhaps objectively? Without all the rest of the "noise?"
I'm quite sure either way, that if we addressed some of the more reasonable or understandable reasons people don't get vaccinated, there would be people who take offense, because they tend to take offense "at the drop of a hat." Fact is, however, the real problem is the many people who are not getting vaccinated for reasons that are not so reasonable or understandable. Far too many of those people who retard our progress toward putting this pandemic behind us.
I'm not interested in random conspiracy theories floating about the internet.
You brought it up. So fill me in.
If your are going to make a statement then defend it.
I have to compliment you as one of the people who does a pretty good job of promoting discussion in the way most people claim they prefer, including me. Interesting to watch how the effort is met with challenges regardless. No doubt why these discussions deteriorate one way or another in time. People don't really want that kind of discussion when they can instead focus on all they prefer to complain about. My hat is off to you anyway...
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