2012 Atlanta Region Transportation Referendum (Dunwoody, Douglas: wage, business, roach)

[cqholt]

Whether you are for or against the TIA, you should be asking these kinds of questions...are the projects needed?

Did you ask these questions at the meetings or wireside chats? I have read the proposal and totally understand what its saying. The projects are fully funded, but in the case of Cobb's major project if federal funds are available then the enhanced service can be upgraded to LRT from Cumberland to Arts Center.

[shivtim]

Originally Posted by Onthemove2014

Downtown Midtown, the point is that it's focusing on ITP and not he burbs where most people work.

Please provide the data showing more people work OTP than ITP. Please also describe how effective transit would work in the sprawling, car-oriented low density areas OTP. Until you do that, stop spouting your opinion like it is fact.

Fulton County alone has more jobs than Barrow, Bartow, Carroll, Cherokee, Cowetta, Douglas, Fayette, Forsythe, Hall, Henry, Newton, Paulding, Rockdale, Spalding, and Walton counties COMBINED. The only counties in the region with a sizable number of jobs are Fulton, Dekalb, Cobb, Gwinnett, and to a lesser degree Clayton. Fulton County is the only county in the entire region where the majority of people who live in the county also work in the same county. For most metro ATL counties, less than 25% of people live in the same county they work in.

http://www.atlantaregional.com/File%...12_Workers.pdf

http://www.atlantaregional.com/File%...s_Sept2010.pdf

[shivtim]

Originally Posted by arjay57

However, there are several employment centers in the northern suburbs -- central Gwinnett, Cumberland, North Fulton, Chamblee, Sandy Springs, etc. -- which are more diffuse but comparable in terms of the number of jobs.

Exactly right on the "more diffuse" point. We're talking about where transit makes sense. It makes sense to provide it to areas with either dense employment, dense residential, or heavily visited tourist/sport/convention facilities. That's why it makes sense that the transit for the TIA is focused mostly ITP. It's just not feasible to set up some sort of light rail system that carts people from their single family home in Hall County to their job in a small office park in Kennesaw.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by shivtim

Please provide the data showing more people work OTP than ITP.

That's indisputable, isn't it?

Fulton County has around 680,000 jobs total. About half of them are actually OTP, but let's say 400,000 are ITP.

DeKalb has 290,000 jobs, and let's say they are all ITP as well.

That gives you 690,000 jobs ITP. Thus even by the most generous numbers, that's still only about 1/3 of total metro area employment.

The data are easily verifiable from sources such as ARC.

http://www.atlantaregional.com/File%...-Forecasts.xls

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by shivtim

Exactly right on the "more diffuse" point. We're talking about where transit makes sense. It makes sense to provide it to areas with either dense employment, dense residential, or heavily visited tourist/sport/convention facilities. That's why it makes sense that the transit for the TIA is focused mostly ITP. It's just not feasible to set up some sort of light rail system that carts people from their single family home in Hall County to their job in a small office park in Kennesaw.

Oh, no doubt about that.

[shivtim]

Where do get that half of Fulton County jobs are ITP? Also, the airport is ITP. Regardless, my point was that "Onthemove2014" isn't using any data to back up his misleading statements.

I get your line of argument, arjay, but it just doesn't make much sense. Most of the jobs in California are located outside of Los Angeles and San Francisco, does that mean that there shouldn't be a focus on infrastructure in those two cities? You get the greatest bang for the buck if you spend tax money in areas with dense employment and/or residents.

Look how massive the area OTP is when compared to ITP:


The fact that the small area ITP has anywhere close to the same number of jobs as the massive area OTP is just more proof of how even in this sprawling region, the center is the most important.

And so far we've only been talking about jobs. Why don't we add in the hotels, tourists, sporting facilities, government buildings and convention centers ITP as compared to OTP. Absolutely no comparison.

I'm not trying to downplay the importance of OTP areas. There are many great people and plenty of jobs and things to see and do OTP. But the fact of the matter is that the central part of Atlanta is the driver of the region. It accounts for a dense concentration of tax revenue, and it makes sense to spend money on improving mobility and access to these areas. It's simply not feasible to provide the same access to jobs/residences OTP because of its sprawling nature.

Originally Posted by arjay57

That's indisputable, isn't it?

Fulton County has around 680,000 jobs total. About half of them are actually OTP, but let's say 400,000 are ITP.

DeKalb has 290,000 jobs, and let's say they are all ITP as well.

That gives you 690,000 jobs ITP. Thus even by the most generous numbers, that's still only about 1/3 of total metro area employment.

The data are easily verifiable from sources such as ARC.

http://www.atlantaregional.com/File%...-Forecasts.xls

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by shivtim

It's just not feasible to set up some sort of light rail system that carts people from their single family home in Hall County to their job in a small office park in Kennesaw.

Right, but you use the most easily dismissed use case to try to bolster your point. What about the people in Kennesaw or Marietta and surrounding areas who travel to north Fulton, and those in north Fulton who go the other way? What about people in Cobb who commute to Dunwoody, and those in Dunwoody who commute to Cobb?

My point being that you could connect to MARTA in north Fulton or Dunwoody, and that going from Cumberland to Arts Center would probably serve many fewer people IN COBB. Why couldn't the connection to MARTA be in Sandy Springs or Dunwoody?

[cqholt]

My point being that you could connect to MARTA in north Fulton or Dunwoody, and that going from Cumberland to Arts Center would probably serve many fewer people IN COBB. Why couldn't the connection to MARTA be in Sandy Springs or Dunwoody?

There is a plan by the PTC to build a LRT line from cumberland to doraville station. But it has to have cumberland built first so it can connect to something .

[testa50]

Looking a little deeper into the 15% local government distribution. I noticed in a discussion over at Creative Loafing that it turns out the suburbs are really getting a great deal on the 15%.

http://www.atlantaregionalroundtable...e_money_v2.pdf

Crunching the numbers and arranging by who gets the most revenue back and who gets the least revenue back:



The reason for this is twofold:

- Inner counties tend to have a lot more shopping and economic activity that generates sales tax revenue, and
- The formula for splitting the pie is based on a combination of population and lane miles.

So Atlanta, especially, with a denser population and higher tax revenue, gets a much smaller chunk of its revenue back than outlying counties. The inner-ring suburban counties tend to break even.

Not that I'm particularly averse to this, as a City of Atlanta resident. I understand that the suburban arterial roads are particularly traffic-clogged, and supporting their improvement will ultimately benefit the entire metro.

[JPD]

Originally Posted by neil0311

Right, but you use the most easily dismissed use case to try to bolster your point. What about the people in Kennesaw or Marietta and surrounding areas who travel to north Fulton, and those in north Fulton who go the other way? What about people in Cobb who commute to Dunwoody, and those in Dunwoody who commute to Cobb?

My point being that you could connect to MARTA in north Fulton or Dunwoody, and that going from Cumberland to Arts Center would probably serve many fewer people IN COBB. Why couldn't the connection to MARTA be in Sandy Springs or Dunwoody?

It should do that. Are you willing to help pay for it?