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I was helping build Experimental Airplanes back in the 1980's. I even flew from NH to Oshkosh for the fly-in in a BD-4. It was lots of work and great fun. If my wages had kept up with my costs I might still be involved with airplanes. They did not so I dropped the hobby.
It might be possible to design a $15 k kit plane but it would be very difficult even if you were satisfied with the Experimental restrictions. I see the demise of sport aviation as one of the consequences of great shift in wealth distribution that started in the 70's and shows no sign of fading.
A large part of the cost of an aircraft is also certification tests. Anything that goes in a plane must be certified by the FAA. Radios, instruments, etc.
If you could get away from those tests, you could outfit a small aircraft with advanced avionics fairly inexpensively. Look at all the work that folks designing drones have come up with - full fledged auto pilots using GPS and airspeed inputs for next to nothing. A digital airspeed input is around $25! Comes with a pitot tube.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,330 posts, read 54,419,437 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW
I was helping build Experimental Airplanes back in the 1980's. I even flew from NH to Oshkosh for the fly-in in a BD-4. It was lots of work and great fun. If my wages had kept up with my costs I might still be involved with airplanes. They did not so I dropped the hobby.
It might be possible to design a $15 k kit plane but it would be very difficult even if you were satisfied with the Experimental restrictions. I see the demise of sport aviation as one of the consequences of great shift in wealth distribution that started in the 70's and shows no sign of fading.
I'm not so sure it's $$$ causing sport aviation's downward trend, it seems many who grow up on video games are just as happy to 'fly' a simulator at home or 'drive' a race car at home as they would be out in the real world. Those who simply need to fly will find a way. After all, there are a lot of decent airplanes available, either older factory ones like Ercoupes or homebuilts for less $$$ than an average person spends on a new car or even some new motorcycles. Now if we could only have a 120HP $7500 engine that weighs less than 200 pounds.
The Easy Eagle is already on the market as a kit for less than $15,000 which can carry one person for up to 300 miles. It just remains to be seen what the open source plane will offer. I assume that they are talking about at least a 2 seater and possibly a little faster than 100 mph.
I'm not so sure it's $$$ causing sport aviation's downward trend, it seems many who grow up on video games are just as happy to 'fly' a simulator at home or 'drive' a race car at home as they would be out in the real world. Those who simply need to fly will find a way. After all, there are a lot of decent airplanes available, either older factory ones like Ercoupes or homebuilts for less $$$ than an average person spends on a new car or even some new motorcycles. Now if we could only have a 120HP $7500 engine that weighs less than 200 pounds.
Nope pretty sure $130/hr+ for a 172 these days is the cause of people not being able to afford it.
Back in early 2000's I was renting brand new 172's (R models) for $65/hr wet.
150's were in the $50's/hr. Instruction was around $20-$25/hr. These days $50/hr is the norm.
Wages have stagnated and rental prices skyrocketed due to fuel and insurance costs, among other things.
Sure you might have some podunk place in KS renting for cheap, but most people live in the major cities were prices have gone up significantly. A private 10 years ago could be had regularly for under $4k-$4.5k for roughly 50 hours of aircraft time (dual and solo). These days it's about double that - if not more.
Don't even get me started on the "sport pilot" license, it's a joke and essentially worthless IMO.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup
Nope pretty sure $130/hr+ for a 172 these days is the cause of people not being able to afford it.
Back in early 2000's I was renting brand new 172's (R models) for $65/hr wet.
150's were in the $50's/hr. Instruction was around $20-$25/hr. These days $50/hr is the norm.
Wages have stagnated and rental prices skyrocketed due to fuel and insurance costs, among other things.
But I see people every day trailering boats that cost at least as much as a decent used airplane and burn more gal/hr and have to either be trailered to water(more gas) or moored at higher costs than a tie-down at the local airport. And I know people who don't shy away from $50-$70 for a round of golf. Flying's never been cheap, but there are people who will spend the price of a Private on a home entertainment system, and not wealthy people, just those with a VISA.
As much as anything else I'd guess recreational flying suffers from a lack of promotion to the non-flying public.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,330 posts, read 54,419,437 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE
Can it be built with a larger displacement Porsche Engine instead?
Displacement is good but Porsche engines generally make their power at higher RPMs of little benefit in an airplane without the added expense/complexity of a reduction drive.
But I see people every day trailering boats that cost at least as much as a decent used airplane and burn more gal/hr and have to either be trailered to water(more gas) or moored at higher costs than a tie-down at the local airport. And I know people who don't shy away from $50-$70 for a round of golf. Flying's never been cheap, but there are people who will spend the price of a Private on a home entertainment system, and not wealthy people, just those with a VISA.
As much as anything else I'd guess recreational flying suffers from a lack of promotion to the non-flying public.
There's a big perception issue with airplanes, especially older ones. My step father really loves aviation, but freaks out at the idea of "old airplanes" and like someone else on a board recently, his thought is "old airplane = old car" so, he'd expect mechanical break downs, setbacks, and a generally unreliable experience.
When I started college in 01' we had "new" 99' 172R's, when I graduated in 05' I can remember talking to him abut a flight I had recently made. The conversation went like this:
SD: What airplane did you fly?
Me: One of the skyhawks.
SD: One of the old ones?
Me: No, one of our new skyhawks.
SD: You guys got new skyhawks?
Me: Well, the ones we had when I started in 01'.
SD: Ah, so the old ones.
Me: Yeh, but they're "new" in aviation terms.
But I see people every day trailering boats that cost at least as much as a decent used airplane and burn more gal/hr and have to either be trailered to water(more gas) or moored at higher costs than a tie-down at the local airport. And I know people who don't shy away from $50-$70 for a round of golf. Flying's never been cheap, but there are people who will spend the price of a Private on a home entertainment system, and not wealthy people, just those with a VISA.
As much as anything else I'd guess recreational flying suffers from a lack of promotion to the non-flying public.
Well you buy a boat and you can have fun from the get go. No need to drop another $8-$10 grand on a license. Annual inspections that could set you back thousands of dollars. Etc.
Plus I'd be curious what you'd classify as a decent aircraft. Most training aircraft are relatively cheap these days ($20k-$40k) but lack a serious ability to actually get a family from A->B.
To sit 4 comfortably + luggage + gas + go places you're looking at a 6 place retract like a Bonanza or Saratoga,, Mooneys would be good for a two person getaway, they are fast but are cramped. Priced any of those out? Don't forget an instrument rating to actually get to places reliably.
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