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When evaluating one player to another in conversations like this I think its helpful to ask, "what player has the best chance to win a title as the best player on his team." I don't really see how you could take Rajon in that hypothetical. Ive heard idiots on ESPN call Rondo the best player on his team, but Ive yet to meet any toughtful basketball people that feel that way.
If you don't like that, take a look at the FIBA roster, Rose proved himself worthy of the starting point guard to Coach K (who I think is a pretty good evaluator of talent) and Rondo threw a fit and withdrew (he would have been cut in all likelyhood)right before the roster was announced.
CP3 and DWill are more on Roses level than Rondo.
And going back to his FTs his career average is 62%, which is a fair sample size to consider. I should have used that instead of the season FT%
so what your saying is that billups is/was better then every PG in the league because he was the best player on the 2004 pistons? that analogy doesnt work, it all depends on the system and the team/players surrounding them. being the best is one thing, being SLIGHTLY better or HUGELY better are different. as for coach k, ehhh i have never been sold on him but what ever. the celtics players AND coach have all said rondo is the best player on their team. some of that is fluff and some of it is possible/realistic. doc has said seveal times rondo is his best player and the key to their title and their success. when your coach says the team couldnt have won without you, that says a lot.
as for his FTs, rondo and rose have taken a near same amount of FTs over their career yet rondo has played nearly twice as many game.
tim duncan shoots a career average 69% ft, pau gasol shoots career 75% so does that mean pau is better then duncan or does that make tim the "liability" you suggest rondo to be? shaq shoots 58% for his career does that make him a liability or worse then other "top centers"? this year, sure but 10 years ago?
lets put it this way, rose averges 24 ppg this year, while rondo is at 11. rose has 8.2 assists to rondos 12.3. taking away the 3 point shot and only using 2 pointers that would mean that rose is responcible for only 5 points more per game combined (40-35). now take into account that rose averages .8 steals to rondos 2.4, now 50% of those SHOULD equal 2 points more that takes rose down to only 3 points more per game. rose plays an extra minute or 2 so that 3 points could be easily erased.
IMO the offensive end is pretty equal when you combine points with assists and rebounds (rondo averages more offensive but not a lot) thus the defensive end is the real deciding factor.
rondo to me is molded in the jason kidd style more all around while rose is more of a tony parker+, more offensive minded who can pass fairly well.
so what your saying is that billups is/was better then every PG in the league because he was the best player on the 2004 pistons?
Either I said what I was trying to say wrong, or you read it wrong, this is not analagous to the point I was trying to make at all.
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Originally Posted by rigas
. as for coach k, ehhh i have never been sold on him but what ever.
Well...I dunno you can have your doubts about him, but I am not sure how you can just write off his basketball assesment of both players like that. Its Coach friggin K.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas
as for his FTs, rondo and rose have taken a near same amount of FTs over their career yet rondo has played nearly twice as many game.
Right, Rose is better at getting to the line, and more efficent when he gets there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas
tim duncan shoots a career average 69% ft, pau gasol shoots career 75% so does that mean pau is better then duncan or does that make tim the "liability" you suggest rondo to be? shaq shoots 58% for his career does that make him a liability or worse then other "top centers"? this year, sure but 10 years ago?
75% for Pau is significantly better obviously, and yes, Duncan would have been an even more effective player if he was better from the line. Yes, hack-a-shack was a "liability" but Shaq was so dominate in his prime that he could easily make up for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas
IMO the offensive end is pretty equal when you combine points with assists and rebounds (rondo averages more offensive but not a lot) thus the defensive end is the real deciding factor.
Im of the POV that this is not a proper indicator. Assists are fully dependent on another player finishing, its not as if Rondo is throwing up behind the back alley oops through defense key holes on all of his assists. Rondo has exceptional offense talent around him, that helps his assist totals as much as his passing helps them score, if not more. Rose creates offense alone, every game, something Rondo cannot do. This has more value than racking up assists and Trip-doubs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas
rondo to me is molded in the jason kidd style more all around while rose is more of a tony parker+, more offensive minded who can pass fairly well.
Ok, I can agree with this. Rondo fits more into the black and white definition of a point guard. But didn't we shatter they myth that a PG has to be a creator first for your team to win like...30+ years ago?
I guess if you want to define "best PG," as who fits the traditional resume of a PG more, than yeah, Rondo would be the answer. If by "best PG" we mean best basketball player, Rose wins.
once again rondo gets held back for those around him. you see rose has a lot of hype around him and i think people buy into it a lot more then they should. i am not saying rose isnt top 5, maybe top 3 but then rondo doesnt get the credit he deserves because of the people he is surrounded by. rose is no doubt having a good season but crowing him as the best pg in the league over guys like rondo, paul, dwill, has to be a joke.
i am just going to leave it at i feel rondos defense (you know defense wins) is better then roses offense. you cant over look the 2.4 steals per game. you cant over look his far better overall defensive game in addition to the steals.
rondo doesnt score a lot, this doesnt mean he cant it only means he doesnt have to.
so what your saying is that billups is/was better then every PG in the league because he was the best player on the 2004 pistons? that analogy doesnt work, it all depends on the system and the team/players surrounding them. being the best is one thing, being SLIGHTLY better or HUGELY better are different. as for coach k, ehhh i have never been sold on him but what ever. the celtics players AND coach have all said rondo is the best player on their team. some of that is fluff and some of it is possible/realistic. doc has said seveal times rondo is his best player and the key to their title and their success. when your coach says the team couldnt have won without you, that says a lot.
as for his FTs, rondo and rose have taken a near same amount of FTs over their career yet rondo has played nearly twice as many game.
tim duncan shoots a career average 69% ft, pau gasol shoots career 75% so does that mean pau is better then duncan or does that make tim the "liability" you suggest rondo to be? shaq shoots 58% for his career does that make him a liability or worse then other "top centers"? this year, sure but 10 years ago?
lets put it this way, rose averges 24 ppg this year, while rondo is at 11. rose has 8.2 assists to rondos 12.3. taking away the 3 point shot and only using 2 pointers that would mean that rose is responcible for only 5 points more per game combined (40-35). now take into account that rose averages .8 steals to rondos 2.4, now 50% of those SHOULD equal 2 points more that takes rose down to only 3 points more per game. rose plays an extra minute or 2 so that 3 points could be easily erased.
IMO the offensive end is pretty equal when you combine points with assists and rebounds (rondo averages more offensive but not a lot) thus the defensive end is the real deciding factor.
rondo to me is molded in the jason kidd style more all around while rose is more of a tony parker+, more offensive minded who can pass fairly well.
I agree with everything you've written with one exception. Rose does NOT have the talent around him that Rondo does which means Rondo has an easier road of things as the 4th or so offensive option on the court with 3 future HOFers.
So, in an apples-2-apples comparison....Rose wins offense and Rondo wins defense. So I think it's somewhat of a toss-up and depends what you need. If I'm the GM for a team like the Heat I take Rondo hands down since I already have 2 great scoreres. For a team set up like the Bulls....Rose in a heartbeat over Rondo. They are very hard to compare since Rose is really closer to a SG.
So far this year their heads-up meetings are about even with Rondo and Rose each having a big game and then another that was about a draw.
Clearly they are amongst the best in the NBA and we can split hairs all day. Any team would be lucky to have them and I do think that Rondo may NOW be the best player on the Celtics....it's tough to say.
I agree with everything you've written with one exception. Rose does NOT have the talent around him that Rondo does which means Rondo has an easier road of things as the 4th or so offensive option on the court with 3 future HOFers.
So, in an apples-2-apples comparison....Rose wins offense and Rondo wins defense. So I think it's somewhat of a toss-up and depends what you need. If I'm the GM for a team like the Heat I take Rondo hands down since I already have 2 great scoreres. For a team set up like the Bulls....Rose in a heartbeat over Rondo. They are very hard to compare since Rose is really closer to a SG.
So far this year their heads-up meetings are about even with Rondo and Rose each having a big game and then another that was about a draw.
Clearly they are amongst the best in the NBA and we can split hairs all day. Any team would be lucky to have them and I do think that Rondo may NOW be the best player on the Celtics....it's tough to say.
this falls into what i was saying, its all about the system. players are built to play a certain way, and they need the system around them to be able to max that potential.
there was a lot of talk of trading parker, and the spurs even offered him to NO for chris paul. IMO that would have been a bad idea as parker, not only knows the system but his style is built for it. i dont think paul would be able to play better in the spurs system then parker does and i think the spurs would either be worse or have to change they way they play their game to fit CP. it is a similar thing with this situation.
i disagree, i think rondo has had his value over shadowed by the people he plays with. rose has yet to do anything to prove he is better. rose averages more points but the point guard isnt supposed to be the scorer but the facilitator traditionally. they average exactly the same rebounds but rondo averages 4 more assists per game. rondo shoots a much higher fg% though rose shoots much better FT and 3pt. rose has taken 322 FTs to rondos 83 so rondos pour ft shooting is moot. rose 224 from 3 to rondos 29 so again moot. both moot due to rondos minimal attempts, % can be skewed. since 1983 only 1 "best pg" in the league has averaged less then 10= assists in a season. jason kidd did it 3 times and he was the assist leader for the league all 3 years.
so explain to me what exactly rose does so much better? he takes more shots then rondo is about all i can see that he does and while he is scoring more points rondo facilitates the offense and doesnt "ball hog". he takes as many shots per game as monte.
maybe the question is if he is top 5 shooting guards because thats what he plays like.
What! what else does he have to prove? He's improved in almost every statistical category and his D. The only thing he doesn't have is a lot of Playoff experience. His assist has gone up also and is continuing to go up. He's better than Rondo.
once again, what has he done to prove he is better? aaron brooks went up in every statistical category last year from the year before so does that make him the best PG last year or does it make him more improved as a player in himself? making your numbers go up doesnt mean your better then anyone else it just means you are better then you where.
no doubt rose is having a huge season but as brooks showed you can have a great season and then fall off, rondo has continued to get better every season and the jury is still out as it is to early in both of their careers to pass full judgement.
this falls into what i was saying, its all about the system. players are built to play a certain way, and they need the system around them to be able to max that potential.
there was a lot of talk of trading parker, and the spurs even offered him to NO for chris paul. IMO that would have been a bad idea as parker, not only knows the system but his style is built for it. i dont think paul would be able to play better in the spurs system then parker does and i think the spurs would either be worse or have to change they way they play their game to fit CP. it is a similar thing with this situation.
I would take CP in a heartbeat since he can do everything Parker can offensively, is 3 years younger AND is a much better defender.
I know about the system, but that might not be the best example.
to be honest i dont think CP is as good a defender as people give him credit. he has steals no doubt but if you watch him, his steals are like manus steals (and tonys) they are all on gambles. he leaves his man to sneak up from behind someone or shooting a gap. look at what he does against the other teams PGs and he gets burned just as often as he burns them.
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