Looking to go off grid and tiny on the Hilo side! (Honolulu: homes, construction)

[Open-D]

Originally Posted by hotzcatz

What good are shoestrings when everyone wears slippas? (flip flops)

[sorry, couldn't resist]


But on the flip side, when we get really well funded folks moving in from the mainland, they take the best places and put up gates and fences then everyday folks can't go there anymore. There's a whole community over in Kona where the whole place is gated with a gate guard. I know loads of folks who have done work on those houses (electricians, solar installers, plumbers, etc.) but I don't know anybody who has gone to those houses as visitors. The only way locals get into the area is as yard workers, pool maintenance people, house cleaners, etc. It's outrageously expensive houses, with people who don't actually live in them, they just visit a few days or weeks a year or so. Not sure why they'd not live here more, but I suppose they have houses all over the place and wander around. Hard to be any part of community when it's a more or less vacant house. It does pay taxes and keep folks employed in keeping it up, but no community there.



We may not actually want much 'growth'/ Frequently 'growth' is too expensive for most folks who live in Hawaii to get much of it since most of us have lower incomes than the folks moving over from the mainland. When land prices go up, well, we can't afford it but folks who have been living in a lower COL area with a higher income have been able to save up enough that they can come over here and buy up the more expensive places.

Had to laugh at that one


I would rather have a community (gated or otherwise) of well-found people, pumping $$ into the coffers via property taxes and GET than a collection of shoe-stringers contributing almost nil (by comparison). That income stream could be used to better infrastructure which would attract more higher-income people.

Aiming low (for the lowest common denominator, aka shoestringers) is not, IMHO, a winning strategy overall. In fact, quite the opposite.

Gentrification usually has an adverse impact on those in the lower strata, but that is not only the cost of progress, but also should be sufficient motivation for them to better themselves, their skills, careers and income. If it isn't sufficient, well that is on them, not "progress".

[whtviper1]

Originally Posted by hotzcatz

But on the flip side, when we get really well funded folks moving in from the mainland, they take the best places and put up gates and fences then everyday folks can't go there anymore. There's a whole community over in Kona where the whole place is gated with a gate guard. I know loads of folks who have done work on those houses (electricians, solar installers, plumbers, etc.) but I don't know anybody who has gone to those houses as visitors. The only way locals get into the area is as yard workers, pool maintenance people, house cleaners, etc. It's outrageously expensive houses, with people who don't actually live in them, they just visit a few days or weeks a year or so. Not sure why they'd not live here more, but I suppose they have houses all over the place and wander around. Hard to be any part of community when it's a more or less vacant house. It does pay taxes and keep folks employed in keeping it up, but no community there.

We may not actually want much 'growth'/ Frequently 'growth' is too expensive for most folks who live in Hawaii to get much of it since most of us have lower incomes than the folks moving over from the mainland. When land prices go up, well, we can't afford it but folks who have been living in a lower COL area with a higher income have been able to save up enough that they can come over here and buy up the more expensive places.

I'm going to guess you are speaking of Holua Kai since there aren't that many gated communities on the Big Island (and even on Oahu). I went on a investor junket a few years back (didn't invest). A couple of things - that I think should be clarified, before the homes were built - there wasn't anything to see for the "everyday" people - there is no beach, just a rocky shoreline. And, you couldn't really go there anyway - you've got the golf course there that has been there some 50 years or so. But if the "everyday" people really wanted to get in, they can - they just have to buy a round of golf at the Kona Country Club - which I will say is a very fine course. We can agree to disagree on what constitutes outrageously expensive, but they typically go for $2MM give or take - they are large, typically with fine finishes. While that may be expensive for the Big Island, I'm not sure it falls into the outrageous category. And of course, you could be talking about a completely different gated community - but there aren't that many.

Regarding growth in general - there isn't much growth going on right now on any of the islands. The BI is projected to grow 1% a year annually the next 25 years. Home prices are land (in some places) are up not so much due to growth, but from the economy. When the economy tanks - so will the home/land prices and a bunch of foreclosures.

[hotzcatz]

$2M is chump change for these folks, I think that's the initiation fee at their clubhouse. Twenty M on up, I'd guess for these houses. It's kinda on the side of Hualalai golf course and area, it's called Kukio perhaps? Just up from the airport a bit, not that far out of Kailua-Kona.

That one up by the country club is sorta gated but not really. We've been to a few yard sales in there. The houses are nice, but not over $1M, I'd guess. Well, some further back are probably worth more maybe up to double that, but not crazy expensive like those big ones over by the airport.

The house prices are feeling a bit on the overblown side at the moment, I'm expecting them to drop in the next year or two. Not that they will drop down to below where they were at the lowest before, generally they will go down to within ten percent of the lowest they were then head back up to above where they were before they fell. Kinda a sawtooth pattern in a general upward trend. I've not looked at it versus adjusted dollars, comparing 2005 dollars with 2019 dollars. It may be that houses are getting cheaper if the dollars are adjusted for different buying power depending on which year.

[hotzcatz]

Originally Posted by Open-D

<SNIP>
Gentrification usually has an adverse impact on those in the lower strata, but that is not only the cost of progress, but also should be sufficient motivation for them to better themselves, their skills, careers and income. If it isn't sufficient, well that is on them, not "progress".

The problem with Hawaii Island is that most of our jobs are in the service sector. I know someone who has a veterinary certificate cleaning hotel rooms. Another has a degree in electrical engineering and he's doing general maintenance at the local university extension. Even when they get the degrees, that doesn't necessarily mean there's employment for them. They're taking care of family so they have to stay in this area. They get by, but there's not a lot out there as far as ways for them to 'better themselves, their skills, careers and income."



This is a rural area, they can't stay here and find high end jobs because there just aren't any. They could perhaps start a business, but just with a degree and certificate, and they'd still need clients. Expecting them to compete with folks coming in with mainland savings is a pretty unequal competition. But, being local is helpful since a lot of folks pass around extra things so being local can be less expensive. Yesterday it was a washer & dryer, today it was an extra microwave and loads of tangerines. Lemons & limes, too. We've been passing out avocados by the boxfull (one weighed in at two pounds, eight ounces, that was just a large one, not the largest there has been) and later other things will come back.



We've got a really great community around here, I'd hate to see 'progress' change it very much. Slow change and slow upgrades are good. Growth to where it overwhelms things is no good.

[Open-D]

Originally Posted by hotzcatz

The problem with Hawaii Island is that most of our jobs are in the service sector. I know someone who has a veterinary certificate cleaning hotel rooms. Another has a degree in electrical engineering and he's doing general maintenance at the local university extension. Even when they get the degrees, that doesn't necessarily mean there's employment for them. They're taking care of family so they have to stay in this area. They get by, but there's not a lot out there as far as ways for them to 'better themselves, their skills, careers and income."



This is a rural area, they can't stay here and find high end jobs because there just aren't any. They could perhaps start a business, but just with a degree and certificate, and they'd still need clients. Expecting them to compete with folks coming in with mainland savings is a pretty unequal competition. But, being local is helpful since a lot of folks pass around extra things so being local can be less expensive. Yesterday it was a washer & dryer, today it was an extra microwave and loads of tangerines. Lemons & limes, too. We've been passing out avocados by the boxfull (one weighed in at two pounds, eight ounces, that was just a large one, not the largest there has been) and later other things will come back.

We've got a really great community around here, I'd hate to see 'progress' change it very much. Slow change and slow upgrades are good. Growth to where it overwhelms things is no good.

I was thinking more of people who don't rely on the local economy for income. Retirees, investors, teleworkers, writers etc. People in the $200K and up range - not wealthy by any means, but not shoestringers either.

To be honest, if I had just plunked down $700K or so on a residence, I would be incensed if a shoestringer wanted to come in next door and build a shack. For some unknown reason, many think the BI is just the place for that. Kind of like the guy who buys a house next door and then paints in some outrageous color.

Oh well, maybe there is no answer. Kinda like the single engine vs twin for a trawler-style yacht. The debate never ends.

[McFrostyJ]

Originally Posted by Open-D

To be honest, if I had just plunked down $700K or so on a residence, I would be incensed if a shoestringer wanted to come in next door and build a shack. For some unknown reason, many think the BI is just the place for that. Kind of like the guy who buys a house next door and then paints in some outrageous color. .

I remember hearing many, MANY years ago that Hawaii and I think Idaho, were the two last places where a person could pretty much build what they want without having to get permits. I heard that a lot.

I know those days are long gone but for some reason, the words keep getting spread.

It was only a few months ago that I heard an older gentleman say this and I had to explain that it is no longer that way.

He cussed me and said that me and other F'n liberals are ruining this damn country!

[Grassyknoll]

Originally Posted by McFrostyJ

I remember hearing many, MANY years ago that Hawaii and I think Idaho, were the two last places where a person could pretty much build what they want without having to get permits.

And Alaska.

[hotzcatz]

Originally Posted by Open-D

I was thinking more of people who don't rely on the local economy for income. Retirees, investors, teleworkers, writers etc. People in the $200K and up range - not wealthy by any means, but not shoestringers either.

To be honest, if I had just plunked down $700K or so on a residence, I would be incensed if a shoestringer wanted to come in next door and build a shack. For some unknown reason, many think the BI is just the place for that. Kind of like the guy who buys a house next door and then paints in some outrageous color.

Oh well, maybe there is no answer. Kinda like the single engine vs twin for a trawler-style yacht. The debate never ends.

Well, for the debate on the trawler, inboard diesel with an outboard kicker just in case you need it. Once you leave the harbor, it's all open ocean. A lot of folks go fish with fairly small boats, less than 20' and just with outboards. The 'mosquito fleet' they call them. Sometimes they have to drag the fish in since if they tried to bring it in inside the boat, the boat would be swamped. Then, there's those crazy kayak fisher folk. They routinely bring in fish that weigh more than their kayaks. Hawaii doesn't have very many places for folks with fancy boats to go show off their fancy boats so most boats have a tendency to be more utilitarian than most places, I'd expect. No Newport, R.I. type harbors around here.

Small nuance, it's the $200K range folks who are in direct competition for the houses the folks from around here can usually look to purchase. Those multi-million crazy expensive house folks don't mix and mingle with the locals very much so they aren't much competition. Kinda like they don't eat out of the same calabash. But, the $200K range folks do become part of the community when they show up so even though they get the houses, they do help. The crazy rich folks just provide more service jobs by having houses that need maintenance by folks other than themselves.

But the retirees, writers, computer programmers, etc., are all good folks to have in the community. I think they help make it stronger without being a drag on it. They also bring outside views which adds interest as long as they don't try to make here just like where they ran away from.

Folks who want to go off grid and tiny are good, if they're doing it as a lifestyle thing and not because it's all they can afford. But, even if it's all they can afford initially, once they get their little house built then they will have an opportunity to do something useful and helpful for the community. Even if it's growing veggies to sell at the local market, that will help get the island more food secure in case of something happening to the barges.

Here's an off grid and tiny cabin that is in the process of being sold up around Waimea - MLS# 634495

At over a million, it's not exactly inexpensive, but it does come with forty acres. However, with different finishes and appliances, a similar small house could be built over in Puna and be an upgrade, perhaps, for some folks. Just because a house is small, doesn't mean it can't be made nicely. Trouble with too much of Puna is that folks seem to assume that inexpensive has to be a square box with no architectural interest at all.

[hotzcatz]

Originally Posted by McFrostyJ

I remember hearing many, MANY years ago that Hawaii and I think Idaho, were the two last places where a person could pretty much build what they want without having to get permits. I heard that a lot.

I know those days are long gone but for some reason, the words keep getting spread.

It was only a few months ago that I heard an older gentleman say this and I had to explain that it is no longer that way.

He cussed me and said that me and other F'n liberals are ruining this damn country!

Well, if he was an older sort of person, perhaps it could have been framed as 'the good old days' that are long gone? One kinda expects the 'good old days' to disappear and doesn't generally figure liberals did it?

FWIW, wouldn't liberals be the ones who want to run off and live in the woods with no permits? Although what one's political preferences have to do with one's choices in housing, I dunno. Can you imagine the kind of kerfluffles folks could get into if there were entire neighborhoods of all one type of folks? Sorted by any sort of sorting method you want, that just polarizes things and doesn't teach folks to get along with other folks at all. Which may be why those big gated enclaves of super rich are so annoying? It just encourages them to assume having all the cookies is a good thing. Having all the cookies with no sense of noblesse oblige is just greedy.

[hotzcatz]

Originally Posted by Grassyknoll

And Alaska.

True, although in Alaska, you kinda have to build things that are valid or Alaska will eat you. Well, the Alaskan bears and weather will eat you, but that's pretty much the same thing. If one built a Hawaiian style grass shack (which you can still build in Hawaii since there's a way to get a permit for them) in Alaska, then even the moose could eat you.