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Old 02-19-2013, 02:10 PM
 
322 posts, read 445,584 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UDResident View Post
What legitimately great boxer in their prime did he fight?
I agree with the sentiment that Floyd isn't the greatest fighter of all time. I too have him below Sugar Ray Robinson, Sugar Ray Leonard as well as a few others. On the other hand, I wouldn't downplay Floyd's greatness simply because he hasn't fought a truly "great" fighter in his prime. Take a look at who's out there. Name a fighter in Floyd's weight range who is great while also being in their prime. There isn't one and quite frankly there hasn't been a great Lightweight, Super Lightweight, or Welterweight in over 10 yrs. There have been really good fighters in those weight classes and Floyd has already disposed of them.

Just in case you are considering Manny Pacquiao in the great category (which I have no problem with), let's not forget how he beefed up his resume by fighting out of their prime Hall of Fame fighters...i.e De la Hoya, Mosely and a broken down Cotto. Granted, Pacquiao gets huge marks on his resume for beating Barrera, Morales, and Marquez but he was never in the P4P discussion until he moved up in weight. Even if they were to fight one day, I personally don't believe that Pacquiao has the comprehensive boxing skills it would take for him to beat Mayweather. He's a great athlete but it takes more than that to beat a great boxer.

At any rate it shouldn't be held against Floyd that there weren't/aren't any legitmately great fighters for him to go up against. He pretty much beat all of the name brand guys that have been out there for the last decade (Cotto, Mosely, Corrales, Castillo among others) minus Pacquiao. And to be honest, I doubt Pacquiao wants anything to do with Floyd after Marquez stretched him out. That being said, I consider Floyd a great fighter although I still would not put him ahead of the other greats who were mentioned earlier.

Last edited by EHCT; 02-19-2013 at 02:13 PM.. Reason: Spelling
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Old 02-19-2013, 02:11 PM
 
756 posts, read 615,623 times
Reputation: 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by slim04 View Post
I've always thought that the fighters today are better athletes because of superior training methods, new equipment, better video, better nutrition, not fighting as often, more cross-training, etc. Old school boxers are rarely cut like they are today.

If you magically dropped Floyd into the 1950's, I'd think he'd dominate. If you magically took Sugar Ray Robinson in the 2010's, I don't think he'd be that competitive.

If you magically took a young pre-teen Sugar Ray Robinson and put him in modern training methods, I suspect he'd be awesome when he got to his mid-20's.

Good post...
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Old 02-19-2013, 02:28 PM
 
735 posts, read 950,582 times
Reputation: 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by slim04 View Post
I've always thought that the fighters today are better athletes because of superior training methods, new equipment, better video, better nutrition, not fighting as often, more cross-training, etc. Old school boxers are rarely cut like they are today.

If you magically dropped Floyd into the 1950's, I'd think he'd dominate. If you magically took Sugar Ray Robinson in the 2010's, I don't think he'd be that competitive.

If you magically took a young pre-teen Sugar Ray Robinson and put him in modern training methods, I suspect he'd be awesome when he got to his mid-20's.
Then you don't know anything about boxing.

Sugar Ray, Ali, Frazier... oh boy would they dominate. PBF would try to use his defense and dancing around, and they would just keep battering him with punches.

PBF would get absolutely worked in the '50s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trader8 View Post
Whoever was in front of him in the ring

If you're having difficulty recognizing Pretty Boy's skill and class at this point, you should probably start following another sport...
I've been following boxing for quite a few years now, thanks.

Skill and class? Sure, he's good. He's not better than Bernard Hopkins though, let alone the truly great fighters of the past.

Against any real opponent (say Pacman, who he kept ducking)... he would get absolutely dominated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EHCT View Post
I agree with the sentiment that Floyd isn't the greatest fighter of all time. I too have him below Sugar Ray Robinson, Sugar Ray Leonard as well as a few others. On the other hand, I wouldn't downplay Floyd's greatness simply because he hasn't fought a truly "great" fighter in his prime. Take a look at who's out there. Name a fighter in Floyd's weight range who is great while also being in their prime. There isn't one and quite frankly there hasn't been a great Lightweight, Super Lightweight, or Welterweight in over 10 yrs. There have been really good fighters in those weight classes and Floyd has already disposed of them.

Just in case you are considering Manny Pacquiao in the great category (which I have no problem with), let's not forget how he beefed up his resume by fighting out of their prime Hall of Fame fighters...i.e De la Hoya, Mosely and a broken down Cotto. Granted, Pacquiao gets huge marks on his resume for beating Barrera, Morales, and Marquez but he was never in the P4P discussion until he moved up in weight. Even if they were to fight one day, I personally don't believe that Pacquiao has the comprehensive boxing skills it would take for him to beat Mayweather. He's a great athlete but it takes more than that to beat a great boxer.

At any rate it shouldn't be held against Floyd that there weren't/aren't any legitmately great fighters for him to go up against. He pretty much beat all of the name brand guys that have been out there for the last decade (Cotto, Mosely, Corrales, Castillo among others) minus Pacquiao. And to be honest, I doubt Pacquiao wants anything to do with Floyd after Marquez stretched him out. That being said, I consider Floyd a great fighter although I still would not put him ahead of the other greats who were mentioned earlier.
How can you consider somebody great when he has fought nothing but past-their-prime fighters and also-rans? I've watched his fights. He beats people who aren't in as good of shape as him by playing defense and running around all fight and then finally actually fighting in the later rounds when his opponent is tired. That's it. As I've said before.. Bernard Hopkins in his prime would absolutely destroy PBF. He had the combination of conditioning, speed, skill, smarts and knockout power that it takes to beat somebody who only wins by dancing around and playing defense until his opponent gets tired. Hopkins wouldn't get tired. He would force PBF to fight, and he would dominate him.

PBF has never been a great boxer. Pacman however, is. He would absolutely destroy PBF. PBF is the one who is nothing more than an athlete, whereas Pacman had the combination of speed, skill, smarts, and knockout power that would've showed everybody just how "great" PBF really is. That's exactly why that fight never happened. If Pacman couldn't beat PBF then PBF wouldn't have ducked him.
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Old 02-19-2013, 02:55 PM
 
756 posts, read 615,623 times
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So much there to reply to, but time is short.

Let me just say this ... PLEASE tell me you're joking regarding Pacquiao, UDResident.

He was NEVER in Pretty Boy's league...
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:10 PM
 
735 posts, read 950,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trader8 View Post


So much there to reply to, but time is short.

Let me just say this ... PLEASE tell me you're joking regarding Pacquiao, UDResident.

He was NEVER in Pretty Boy's league...
If you really think that then you don't know anything about boxing. PBF is by far the most overrated fighter in history.
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Old 02-19-2013, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas, NV
519 posts, read 503,845 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UDResident View Post
I've watched his fights. He beats people who aren't in as good of shape as him by playing defense and running around all fight and then finally actually fighting in the later rounds when his opponent is tired. That's it.
While I generally disagree with your simplistic observations, let's consider it for a second. You mean to say that Floyd goes into his fights with a game plan, a strategy and executes it and wins every time?! See: Ring Generalship Ring generalship - Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia There are few better at it than Mayweather. Only a fool would argue against a successful formula. Moreover, what's wrong with utilizing defense? While you're supposed to punch your opponent, of course, it's just as important to avoid getting hit. His style may not appeal to someone such as yourself, but he can win all of his fights without taking too much damage AND be the highest paid figure in boxing (by far) so there obviously must be quite a few people buying the PPVs who appreciate what he does.


Quote:
As I've said before.. Bernard Hopkins in his prime would absolutely destroy PBF. He had the combination of conditioning, speed, skill, smarts and knockout power that it takes to beat somebody who only wins by dancing around and playing defense until his opponent gets tired. Hopkins wouldn't get tired. He would force PBF to fight, and he would dominate him.
Regardless of how many times you may have said this, it's a silly argument. While I respect BHop and his skills tremendously, Mayweather has fought from 130 lbs. to 154 lbs. How many fights has Hopkins had at those weight classes? It'd be similar to me saying that a prime Mike Tyson would absolutely destroy Bernard Hopkins. It's a pointless comparison.

Quote:
PBF has never been a great boxer. Pacman however, is. He would absolutely destroy PBF.
Manny Pacquiao has never been a great boxer. Floyd Mayweather, however is. He would absolutely destroy Pacquiao.

Oh my, tossing around platitudes is SO much fun!!
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:09 AM
 
756 posts, read 615,623 times
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Good stuff, Evan702

Amazing how some people continue to diss the undefeated, six-time champ...
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:09 PM
 
322 posts, read 445,584 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UDResident View Post
How can you consider somebody great when he has fought nothing but past-their-prime fighters and also-rans? I've watched his fights. He beats people who aren't in as good of shape as him by playing defense and running around all fight and then finally actually fighting in the later rounds when his opponent is tired. That's it. As I've said before.. Bernard Hopkins in his prime would absolutely destroy PBF. He had the combination of conditioning, speed, skill, smarts and knockout power that it takes to beat somebody who only wins by dancing around and playing defense until his opponent gets tired. Hopkins wouldn't get tired. He would force PBF to fight, and he would dominate him.

PBF has never been a great boxer. Pacman however, is. He would absolutely destroy PBF. PBF is the one who is nothing more than an athlete, whereas Pacman had the combination of speed, skill, smarts, and knockout power that would've showed everybody just how "great" PBF really is. That's exactly why that fight never happened. If Pacman couldn't beat PBF then PBF wouldn't have ducked him.
Your misrepresentation of Floyd's boxing skills does nothing to enhance your argument. I have a quick question... If Pacquiao is the ultimate embodiment of speed, skill, smarts and knockout power AND all Floyd does is run around for 10 out of 12 rounds then please explain how in his 61 fights Pacquiao has a KO rate of 62% while Floyd's KO rate is 60% in his 43 fights? For someone who runs around a lot and just plays defense Floyd's KO percentage is mighty close to the knockout power displayed by your hero Pacquiao.

I don't know why I would have to explain this to a boxing fan but the sport is called BOXING, not Let's See Who Can Knock Someone Out The Fastest. The object of the sport is to hit and not be hit and Floyd does that better than just about anyone I've seen this side of Pernell Whitaker. Pacquiao on the other hand loves to eat punches. He's been KO'd 3 TIMES in his career because he offers next to nothing in defense. How can you possibly think that his boxing skill level and I.Q. is anywhere near Floyd's? Pacquiao is more similar to Roy Jones. Once his athleticism leaves he's going to be a sitting duck; trust me.

One last thing. If Floyd just wins off of conditioning alone as you eluded to, then why doesn't someone just bust their butt in the gym and go in the ring with the plan of out conditioning Floyd in order to gain an easy victory? Conditioning is a significant part of the fight game isn't it? Eventhough you don't want to admit that Floyd is a supreme boxer, you can't take away his 8 World Titles in 5 different weight classes. I'm sure he'd have even more if he was in the business of chasing titles.
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:27 AM
 
1,140 posts, read 1,090,935 times
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Floyd is a great fighter, but his hands and body couldn't keep up with his schedule if he fought in Robinson's era. Robinson was a freak of nature. He had all the physical attributes, the mental attributes, and the longevity.

Honestly, if Floyd fought in that era, he wouldn't get nearly the publicity, and he would probably be on the Holman William's level.

No fault of his own, it's just that Robinson had skills and knocked people out.

With that said, while Broner doesn't have the footwork that Robinson does, he has that combination of power and speed that could make him a super star in the near future.

Based on attributes alone, he could be bigger than Mayweather. Mayweather's mouth generates a lot of his revenue, while Broner is in the same mold as Mayweather as far as his personality is concerned, due to his power and speed, and ability to finish his man, he doesn't need it to be successful.
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Old 02-21-2013, 05:00 PM
 
Location: :~)
1,483 posts, read 2,915,594 times
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I want to scream...Heck no, funk no. Sugar did not duck anyone. This is no contest.
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