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I also don't think other provinces will want to leave Canada if Quebec left. There's no reason for them to. They may posture for more federal funding and provincial rights but there's no reason to leave the country. They would be too small as independent nations and would not be a good fit for the US. I think the best scenario is that Quebec wants to happily be a part of Canada and we move forward as one nation. But if Quebec ever wanted to separate (and last time I checked, the separatists are still not the majority), the ROC will survive just fine.
Well the west would be able to keep it's money in the west. The ROC would economically be better off without the have not provinces.
And actually the 4 provinces would do just fine on their own, they don't need the US at all. Ontario only serves as a production and international centre at this point. The biggest issue is BC and Alberta arguing about who is in charge. If Quebec and the 4 western provinces leave it's Ontario and the Maritimes that are going to be in trouble...
But I agree the west won't leave. Unless Ontario pumps out more funding laws to the Have Not provinces. Truth be told, Quebec and the Maritimes are costing us more money than they are earning us.
Last edited by Heinrich S; 03-15-2014 at 01:12 AM..
... As much as I respect the fact that the people of Quebec have a different language and culture, there are also many shared cultural values and history with the rest of Canada.. I don't think Canada is Canada without Quebec. We are so intertwined that it is almost unthinkable to me that this would actually happen. I think people are underestimating how important unification is to our country and to the national psyche.
Call me a nationalist, but I do think that a country is more than a Province. .
There certainly are many shared cultural values and history Quebec has with the rest of Canada but it means very little to todays separatist mind set, they look at that period as a time of Anglo domination and being a suppressed minority by their Anglo overlords, basically a victim mentality ..
We may have once been intertwined but now Quebecs separatist element no longer feel that way and as a result theres a certain dislike of Anglos and Canada that pervades much of the francophone demographic to the point where the separation of Quebec IMO has become the only logical course of action.
One thing you might want to remember is its Quebec thats wanting to leave Canada and not Canada doing anything to force Quebec to leave..
Libs need to do better than neck and neck to win, but the good news is the polls (and that site's model) underestimated them by a lot in 2012.
The fact that its neck and neck with a party whos sole objective is to leave the Canadian collective is astounding to me and speaks volumes to the attitudes of a major part of the francophone demographic toward their view of being Canadian.
There certainly are many shared cultural values and history Quebec has with the rest of Canada but it means very little to todays separatist mind set, they look at that period as a time of Anglo domination and being a suppressed minority by their Anglo overlords, basically a victim mentality ..
We may have once been intertwined but now Quebecs separatist element no longer feel that way and as a result theres a certain dislike of Anglos and Canada that pervades much of the francophone demographic to the point where the separation of Quebec IMO has become the only logical course of action.
One thing you might want to remember is its Quebec thats wanting to leave Canada and not Canada doing anything to force Quebec to leave..
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The Separatist mind set ebbs and flows quite a bit actually on the question of actual succession though doesn't it? I mean even in recent history (and albeit some close calls), Quebec has always voted for unification. Even as recently as three years ago the Bloq got slaughtered in the federal election, I don't think the Separatist mind set is a 'clear majority'
So maybe if in time it is that clear majority that want Quebec separation and i'm not convinced of that even if the PQ gets a majority government (its probably more than just the Quebec Separation issue that factors into that), we can start to evaluate succession and I'm even talking more than one vote at one time as well given how fractured the movement has been. Until than I don't think it is a logical conclusion at all. The logical conclusion I can draw is that the majority of Quebecers want to remain in a united Canada.
It wouldn't be a bad idea to start drawing out what separation would look like however. For example if the clear majority is 52 percent (which is high for the separatist movement - something they've never been able to achieve in Quebec), what about the 48 percent who didn't vote for it. This is where that map you brought up comes to bear and also all the other ugly details of a potential divorce. Perhaps if the reality of what kind of impact this would have on the movement and the country as a whole were to become clear - it would change the perception of the romanticism of Quebec separation and at the very least clarify the challenges faced. Once clear I think the benefits of unification for all Canadians including Quebecers far outweigh the cons of separation.
Well the west would be able to keep it's money in the west. The ROC would economically be better off without the have not provinces.
And actually the 4 provinces would do just fine on their own, they don't need the US at all. Ontario only serves as a production and international centre at this point. The biggest issue is BC and Alberta arguing about who is in charge. If Quebec and the 4 western provinces leave it's Ontario and the Maritimes that are going to be in trouble...
But I agree the west won't leave. Unless Ontario pumps out more funding laws to the Have Not provinces. Truth be told, Quebec and the Maritimes are costing us more money than they are earning us.
This is the whole Pandora's box that potentially would be opened in a country as large as Canada with regional variations. Quebec is but one part so I think we need to take a stand for a United Canada. If there are those parts not living up to their potential than why - it might be a whole lot more complicated than just wanting their own country.
I'm curious... when separatists speak do they ever discuss economics? or is it just social ideology?
How do the separatists propose to make up for the monetary shortfall Quebec will experience when the transfer payments stop?
From the Gov. of Canada dept. of finance:
Federal Support to Quebec
In 2014-15, the Government of Quebec will receive $19.6 billion through major transfers – an increase of $7.6 billion from 2005-06.
In 2013-14, the Government of Quebec received $17.9 billion in major transfers, accounting for about 25 percent of its revenues in that year.
I'm no economist but that seems like a REALLY large piece of provincial revenue to try and create from "elsewhere"
I'm curious... when separatists speak do they ever discuss economics? or is it just social ideology?
How do the separatists propose to make up for the monetary shortfall Quebec will experience when the transfer payments stop?
From the Gov. of Canada dept. of finance:
Federal Support to Quebec
In 2014-15, the Government of Quebec will receive $19.6 billion through major transfers – an increase of $7.6 billion from 2005-06.
In 2013-14, the Government of Quebec received $17.9 billion in major transfers, accounting for about 25 percent of its revenues in that year.
I'm no economist but that seems like a REALLY large piece of provincial revenue to try and create from "elsewhere"
I too am not an economist, and someone please correct me if I'm mistaken, but transfer payments and equalization payments are two different things.
Part of that transfer payment Quebec has received is money coming back to Quebec that they have paid in federal taxes.
It's the equalization payment, topping up as it were, is the " extra " they get.
This is an interesting read. You can if you want skip down to Quebec specifically.
I have read that before.... it is a good read and I know it's not easy to come up with firm numbers/percentages as to how much a particular province *gives* and how much a particular province *gets*.
In the end of the article though... Quebec is listed as a "have not" province along with the territories and the maritime provinces and also has the distinction of having the highest provincial tax rates of any province in the country.
Also - if the separatists were successful in their mandate they would be obligated to take Quebec's share of the federal debt which is currently in the neighborhood of 616 billion dollars.
I wasn't trying to be rude when I asked how the separatists explain the economic viability of their plan... I'm just really curious!
An interesting read with some realistic consequences, but also some misinformation. "Dealing with the Canadian government ? No more requirements for bilingual meetings. No more simultaneous translation of French into English."
Considering that NB, and some might say MB, are officially bilingual provinces... this need would not go away.
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