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Do you live in Hull or Gatineau? And have you read Trudeau, Son of Quebec Father of Canada?
Trudeau used questionable means to keep Quebec in Canada, though. Plus, just because someone was raised in an era when dictatorship was in vogue doesn't make him one. He betrayed his own people and was anti-Quebec independence.
Trudeau used questionable means to keep Quebec in Canada, though. Plus, just because someone was raised in an era when dictatorship was in vogue doesn't make him one. He betrayed his own people and was anti-Quebec independence.
He rode both sides of the fence on that. I think once he was PM his Privy Council oath required him to be Federalist.
He rode both sides of the fence on that. I think once he was PM his Privy Council oath required him to be Federalist.
There is no oath to the indivisibility of the nation for Canadian PMs or any other official AFAIK. Though I suppose that it's a given, like a number of other things.
As for PET's views in independence, he did not change them in order to become PM. Rather, he became PM of Canada because his views on Quebec independence had changed (ie soured) long before then.
PET was only in favour of Quebec independence for a relatively short period of his life, and I don't think he was ever one of its militants.
Even a good 10 years before he became PM, he was writing stuff like "Some Obstacles to Democracy in Quebec".
If you read anything but the very earliest stuff that he wrote, it's clear he didn't think that French Canadians could be trusted with too much power.
Both that and his actions as PM betray a willingness to see the "anglo" element acting as a check on French Canadians' less noble side.
Since he was a big cult of personality guy, he also probably saw his own anglo side (he was half anglophone half francophone) as having saved him from the negative aspects of the francophone side of his persona.
"Canada" was simply the biggest "pond" for him to realistically play in, given where he was born. Had Canada been part of the U.S. he would have gone to Washington and become the biggest "rah-rah-rah America" type you've ever seen.
If you read anything but the very earliest stuff that he wrote, it's clear he didn't think that French Canadians could be trusted with too much power.
Both that and his actions as PM betray a willingness to see the "anglo" element acting as a check on French Canadians' less noble side.
Since he was a big cult of personality guy, he also probably saw his own anglo side (he was half anglophone half francophone) as having saved him from the negative aspects of the francophone side of his persona.
He also derided English as "not his mother tongue."
Even if Quebec separates they will still be able to extort, unless truckers and tourists don't mind crossing the U.S. to travel between Ontario and the Maritimes. Remembr, Newfoundland is not a Maritime and there's no paved travel unless your vehicle can swim.
Do you know what train ferries are? If Quebec separated some system of train ferries and vehicular ferries on the St. Lawrence would get set up for travel between Ontario to the maritimes.
If Quebec were to separate from Canada it would still be a divided country of several nations within one nation. The 25 First Nations tribes of Quebec have 30 reserves scattered about throughout all of Quebec including one that overlaps Ontario, Quebec and New York and their status gives them right of access. They are against the very idea of Quebec separating, they have no intention of agreeing to an independence movement, nor of leaving Quebec territory nor of leaving Canada, and they would have no intention of selling, abandoning or ceding ownership of their tribal lands to Quebec. So if Quebec were to separate it would have the 25 First Nations of Quebec to contend with.
Ha, I bet the enterprising FN's would probably set up ferries on the St. Lawrence too, and build toll roads from reserve to reserve to reserve across all of Quebec from Ontario to the maritimes and Labrador and there wouldn't be a thing the Quebec government could do to prevent that.
I think Quebec separatism proponents have a tendency to deliberately forget about the conundrums that would arise with the First Nations people. I believe the separatists prefer to pretend that the First Nations people don't exist in the hopes that other people in Canada will also discount them or forget that the First Nations would have the upper hand in Quebec.
Do you know what train ferries are? If Quebec separated some system of train ferries and vehicular ferries on the St. Lawrence would get set up for travel between Ontario to the maritimes.
If Quebec were to separate from Canada it would still be a divided country of several nations within one nation. The 25 First Nations tribes of Quebec have 30 reserves scattered about throughout all of Quebec including one that overlaps Ontario, Quebec and New York and their status gives them right of access. They are against the very idea of Quebec separating, they have no intention of agreeing to an independence movement, nor of leaving Quebec territory nor of leaving Canada, and they would have no intention of selling, abandoning or ceding ownership of their tribal lands to Quebec. So if Quebec were to separate it would have the 25 First Nations of Quebec to contend with.
Ha, I bet the enterprising FN's would probably set up ferries on the St. Lawrence too, and build toll roads from reserve to reserve to reserve across all of Quebec from Ontario to the maritimes and Labrador and there wouldn't be a thing the Quebec government could do to prevent that.
I think Quebec separatism proponents have a tendency to deliberately forget about the conundrums that would arise with the First Nations people. I believe the separatists prefer to pretend that the First Nations people don't exist in the hopes that other people in Canada will also discount them or forget that the First Nations would have the upper hand in Quebec.
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It's not publicly stated in this way, but I think the expectation in separatist circles is that they'd be bought out. Sounds crass but that's the way the world works.
Depending on how you define it, Quebec has between 100-150,000 Indigenous people. But a significant chunk of them are like friends, family and acquaintances of mine and simply live among the general population and are indistinguishable from the rest of us. They show up in the stats because they have "status cards".
Probably only about 50,000 or so live in Indigenous communities and of those not are "recalcitrants" like you describe. They may not be pro-independence but they are not necessarily super patriotic Canadians either. If the colonial French or the colonial British want to rearrange their relationship and the deck chairs, provided it doesn't change their situation negatively, they don't care.
The more recalcitrant communities are the Cree and Inuit in the far north, and the Mohawks in two small pockets on the outskirts of Montreal.
As I said already, my nose for realpolitik tells me Quebec would make them an offer they can't refuse (lots of money and a high degree of autonomy, and that Canada probably couldn't match because it would have to match it for its proportionately much larger Indigenous population in the other provinces and territories.
Majority rules. If you don't want to run with the herd, you can't expect it to stop or go around you. Canada constantly tries to do this, but it is doomed to failure.
Like the Aboriginals, the French have no choice but to separate and form their own independent nation or allow the natural dispersion and assimilation of their culture into the greater whole. There is no other way. The "you in your corner, us in ours" approach does not make for a healthy nation. In fact, by very definition it creates a failed one.
I'm tired of being held hostage or having to bend over backwards to accommodate a few petulant crybabies. The English won the war. It's done. If you don't like the game, take your ball and go home, or choose to join in and make a stronger team. We are becoming a nation of self-interested silos, and cohesion is rapidly diminishing. Of course, this has been the plan all along, to facilitate a North American union.
I've had close friends in Montreal for over 25 years; they're a family of Asian immigrants (Filipino), and can converse in four languages -- Ilocano (Philippine dialect), Tagalog (Philippine lingua franca), English and French. The next generation will probably add another language, like Spanish or German as a requirement for university graduation. These are a substantial portion of the people who, often in middle management roles in a de-industrialzed economy, help to keep things functioning.
And this is one of the upsides of living and functioning on a daily basis in a polyglot society; the pressure to retain a single common language (and to fight over what that language should be) predominates mostly among the provincials -- just as it does down here "south of the border".
Multi-lingualism is a natural consequence of the "shrinking" of the globe brought about by the increasing benefits of international travel and commerce. It harms no one save the minority who seek to get their way at the expense of everybody else. And those who don't like it are free to stay in their own shallow pond.
Last edited by 2nd trick op; 08-03-2020 at 09:39 AM..
It's not publicly stated in this way, but I think the expectation in separatist circles is that they'd be bought out. Sounds crass but that's the way the world works.......
I don't just think that's the expectation, I know it is the expectation, it always has been that way across Canada and if selling out is refused the attitude is to decimate, to crush them into oblivion and take everything away from them in retaliation. Where do you think the expression "Indian Giver" comes from? I think First Nations people are sick and tired of that same old BS of being kept under the thumb occurring over and over again in certain places. With regard to separatism in Quebec I believe the FN's are being underestimated and have a few aces in reserve up their sleeves in case they are needed.
AJ, I don't know how on earth anyone could interpret self-respect and seizing an opportunity for enterprise and betterment as recalcitrance. But I can tell you that that very attitude right there towards First Nations people is also something that has been happening to them right across Canada from day one since the first Europeans set foot on North American soil and encountered the indigenous people. "How dare they stand against me and deny me? I'll show them what's what and who's the boss around here! " says the European to himself as he hauls out every dirty trick in the book.
But I'm thinking we'll never actually find out what the First Nations people in Quebec would do in the event of separatism though because I don't believe separation is ever going to happen. It's nothing but an irrational pipe dream.
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