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My 2 cents I know some canadians have very different opinions than me about the state of our country but I just don't get why we are not americans (especially english speaking provinces). Hop I answered the question a little bit, got carried away.
Thanks SO much for your perspective. In my current life, I only have constant communications with people from BC and Ontario primarily, so your input is terrific to me! And, honestly, as a Canadian, your opinion counts as much as theirs does. (Or, at least, I believe so)
It's very interesting what you mentioned about Alberta. I have gotten the distinct impression that there is a lot of "in-fighting" politically speaking, among some of the provinces. For example, BC is celebrating their 150th anniversary this year. Many BC'ers are mad because they've gotten little to no money from Ottawa for this, while Quebec has for their own anniversary celebration. You know why, of course...they believe that it is to keep you all in the country. Whether or not that's true is another issue, but that's the sentiment that I've seen.
Again, it is VERY interesting to see your perspective on this, and no worries about getting "carried away". I, for one, appreciate the passion in what you've said. Thanks so much for responding.
Generally speaking I see Canadians and Americans displaying different kinds of patriotism.
I think we just notice different kinds of patriotism that doesn't necessarily exist in the same way or quantity at home. By that virtue, we probably think eachother's country is more patriotic than the other. But I think we just display patriotism differently in ways we're not used to at home.
In the USA, the American flag, from my perspective, is just everywhere. But by that I mean it's everywhere in the USA in ways you don't see the Canadian flag in Canada. Canadians generally don't have flag poles in front of their homes, but in the USA (especially in smaller towns) it's common. Very common! So coming from a place where nobody displays flags in that way, when I go to the USA, it immediately feels more patriotic because so many homes have their flag poles and their flags are waving!
I also feel that the American flag is taken way more seriously in the USA than the Canadian flag is in Canada.
By that I mean that American children learn from a very early age to pledge allegiance to their flag. To my eyes, this level of instilled patriotism is verging on being cult-like. But it's a part of the normal American experience. In my experience, I sang the national anthem only at school assemblees which was maybe once every month or two, but even then, I don't recall ever seeing a Canadian flag within the school classroom. Of course, my school did have a Canadian flag on a pole outside, as all Canadian schools do. But my point is, there is no equivalency in Canada to pledging allegiance to a flag, and the flag is not made into the daily routine of Canadian children.
Another example of taking the flag more seriously in the USA than in Canada is when I watch sporting events in the USA. Most, if not all people hold their hands over their hearts as the flag is being raised and the anthem is being sung.
In Canada, there is no hand over heart. No hat off head. People usually just stand there and mumble out the anthem. And many people confuse the lyrics because there are several versions - older versions, newer versions, bilingual versions.
In Canada, the Canadian flag is often just... a flag. It is respected, certainly, but there is no ritualized devotion to the Canadian flag in Canada.
But what I think's crucial to the understanding of Canada's relation to its flag is that it's a flag that has been ever changing. The flag that Canada currently has was designed in 1965!!! Previously to the 1965, Canada's flag was the red ensign:
So to put it in perspectie, the maple leaf flag as we know it is only a recent phenomenon that only recent generations are learning to embrance. My parents generation (Baby Boomers) don't have the same kind of instilled love for the current Canadian flag than my generations. But even then, the Canadian identity has also been shifting. In the 1950's and 60's, the Canadian identity was still heavily stuck in the British identity. And by that, kids sang "God Save The King/Queen" in school and schools and federal offices like post offices had a photo of Queen Elizabeth hanging on the wall. In older schools and older post offices, you can still see those black and white photos. It's like being in a time warp! All I'm trying to stress here is that the Canadian identity as we know it today - the post-British identity - is really a just new thing. It's still forming - an identity trying to figure itself out.
By contrast, the American stars and stripes has been playing a large role in the American identity for hundreds of years. It's just that much stronger as a symbol of patriotism.
When I drive down into the USA, to WA, OR, and CA... I often see the stars and stripes being worn, or available easily in stores as clothing, or as a motif for practically anything - all the way down to kitschy country crafts.
I don't think Canada has anything that equals the USA's "God Bless America".
I remember driving through country roads in the USA and seeing random signs claiming, "God Bless America". I saw it many times. I saw it on decorations. I saw it on clothing. I saw it on old truck stop signs, on church signs, and emblazed across bumper stickers. It almost makes American patriotism mythical and ethereal.
Again, what a bold statement, and to see it so frequently in the USA, it's hard not to feel that patriotism in the USA is not an almost religious experience entrenched into the identity of being American because everywhere I go, I see scenes of patriotism that are completely lacking in Canada.
One thing I will warn, however, is that Canadian patriotism comes across very strong in a sports setting. And really only when there's a Canada vs another country game. And if it's a Canada vs the USA? Well, you're going to get pelted with often meat-headed Canadians who feel like the perpetual underdog when next to the USA (especially in this era of American takeovers of Canadian sports teams and general American dominance in the sports world). So they bark and bark loud. It's often embarrassing and cringe-worthy. And they're only barking as a defense mechanism. You end up becoming the personification of the USA and the target for their rants. It's like a one-way argument because they're likely saturated with American perspectives through the media, but rarely do they get the chance to dish their Canadian perspectives back at the USA. And there you are: a real live American. Of course, they start firing away their patriotic crap as if you had been pelting them with a life time of American jingoism and patronizing attitudes towards Canada. It's really embarrassing and small minded. But it's so pervasive in Canada, especially in the sports environment!
And I'm only mentioning this because I've seen it, and I've noticed you've claimed Canadians are more patriotic in prior posts. And I know that your visits to Canada generally revolve around curling, so you're generally being surrounded by the type of Canadians who really do like to hype up their love for being Canadian, especially if they can throw it in the face of an unassuming American. Because to them, being Canadian is being NOT American. And they want you to know that they're proud that they're not American. And it makes them feel superior. I think it's idiotic.
But honestly? If you get yourself out of the sports setting and you don't surround yourself with those crowds, I think you might find something different. Many of my good friends are Americans living in Vancouver (from Kansas, Colorado, Wisconsin, Texas, San Francisco, etc) so it would be interesting to get their perspectives on patriotism. Of course, many of them are involved in the locals arts scene or the local video game industry where you generally don't get that Canada vs. the USA banter.
Of course, these are my infamous mass generalizations.
Last edited by Robynator; 03-06-2008 at 04:01 AM..
Canada seems more decentralised to me. I mean states in the US have more independance to make their own rules but none of them questions patriotism and the US. Here in Canada you have Quebec who constantly wants to secede, Alberta that are hardcore conservatives and a bunch of small provinces (Atlantics and Manitoba and Saskatchewan), I will get to BC and Ontario later. We act more like a confederation that is together for achieving common goals (security etc.) but are very different.
You are right on the money. I agree 100% with you.
National identity is a construction - a fabrication. (God, I sound like I'm writing a university history exam). But this is so true. Canada is a confederation of very different regions with very different interests. It's why I rarely identify with being Canadian, but I'll identify at a local level.
Canada started off as a patchwork of different colonies that hummed and hawed over whether or not they'd join. They joined at different times and for completely different reasons - almost always for a reason that would benefit their local region. Some joined as the only way to get out of debt... as the British government governing the colonies didn't want to keep feeding them money. Others joined only to be a part of a growing industrial transport network. I mean, Canada's initial Confedration was in 1867... and "Canada" of 1867 only consisted of Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia! All else were British colonies doing their own things. The last province to join the Confederation was Newfoundland, and that was in 1951 I believe! So Canada as a Confederation is pretty much an experiment and a work in progress over 90-ish years.
We're certainly a hodgepodge with nothing truly tying us all together other than a past decision to join Confederation and make those colonies into provinces. I mean, BC only decided to join Confederation because they promised they'd build a railroad to BC to link to the eastern half of the continent. BC otherwise had absolutely no connections to anywhere east of the Rockies and were debating whether or not to join the USA. And still to this day, I'd argue that most people in BC don't relate to the rest of Canada and in fact feel aliented with the so-called Canadian identity. And I've always argued that the Canadian stereotypical identity lies in Ontario regional identity. I always feel Ontarians are usually the most eager to claim their Canadianness.
It's only been the past few decades that a Canadian identity has truly begun to develop, and even then it feels more like it's an attempt to grasp at straws. "What connects us all?" Well... nothing, really. Nothing connects us all.
Oh yes, I also I feel hockey fans are also really hung up on identifying as being Canadian. Of course, I am just saying that because I am definitely not a hockey fan. Major turn off. But Tim Horton's knows this, which is why all their ads revolve around Canadian patriotism and hockey.
Last edited by Robynator; 03-06-2008 at 04:03 AM..
but I just don't get why we are not americans (especially english speaking provinces).
I think you answered your own question. It's probably an issue of Canadian decentralization vs. American national unity. American unity only works because there's a cohesive American national identity all Americans can be a part of. Canada, the nation, fails because it has nothing truly cohesive binding it together identity-wise. There is no universal Canadian experience. Likewise, becoming American would mean adopting the American sense of unity and identity, which would equally alienate Canadians.
Last edited by Robynator; 03-06-2008 at 04:10 AM..
In the USA, the American flag, from my perspective, is just everywhere. But by that I mean it's everywhere in the USA in ways you don't see the Canadian flag in Canada. Canadians generally don't have flag poles in front of their homes, but in the USA (especially in smaller towns) it's common. Very common! So coming from a place where nobody displays flags in that way, when I go to the USA, it immediately feels more patriotic because so many homes have their flag poles and their flags are waving!
That's SO interesting, because it's something that I don't see at all. I mean, yes, on occasion, and of course, depending on where you go, but generally, where I've lived, the flag has been noticably absent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robynator
I also feel that the American flag is taken way more seriously in the USA than the Canadian flag is in Canada.
I don't doubt it at all. I know, that as a child, I was instilled with a respect for it that went way beyond "the pledge". I remember learning how to properly care for it, fold it and dispose of it. We had celebrations in school for "Flag Day" (June 14th). And, of course, we all know the "Betsy Ross myth" about it.
I think that a lot of this has to do with how the flag (and our national anthem) are so steeped in our history. The "overcoming adversity" thing, you know. IMO, it is something that *all* of us, as Americans, can take pride in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robynator
By that I mean that American children learn from a very early age to pledge allegiance to their flag. To my eyes, this level of instilled patriotism is verging on being cult-like. But it's a part of the normal American experience. In my experience, I sang the national anthem only at school assemblees which was maybe once every month or two, but even then, I don't recall ever seeing a Canadian flag within the school classroom. Of course, my school did have a Canadian flag on a pole outside, as all Canadian schools do. But my point is, there is no equivalency in Canada to pledging allegiance to a flag, and the flag is not made into the daily routine of Canadian children.
Again, I do think that, at least initially, this had to do with instilling *pride* more than anything else. Now, it's just become a routine that people are fighting in the courts over. But, looking back on it, and the probably thousands of times I've said the pledge, I don't see it as any more of a "common thread" that people have as Americans, and is really not, in any way, "cult-like".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robynator
In Canada, there is no hand over heart. No hat off head. People usually just stand there and mumble out the anthem. And many people confuse the lyrics because there are several versions - older versions, newer versions, bilingual versions.
That's interesting to hear, because I've seen just the opposite. We went to the CFL playoff game between BC and Sask, and I literally got chills as the Canadian national anthem was sung, by the ENTIRE crowd. It was amazing to see and hear. (And, of course, since it literally was the first time I had heard it from beginning to end, it was memorable in that way as well)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robynator
All I'm trying to stress here is that the Canadian identity as we know it today - the post-British identity - is really a just new thing. It's still forming - an identity trying to figure itself out.
That's VERY interesting. I didn't realize that this was *so* recent.
I'll have to ask my bf and other, erm, older friends, about their experiences. I'm sure they'll have some interesting stories to tell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robynator
When I drive down into the USA, to WA, OR, and CA... I often see the stars and stripes being worn, or available easily in stores as clothing, or as a motif for practically anything - all the way down to kitschy country crafts.
That's quite an interesting comment, since I've seen the same with the Canadian flag. Actually, at the mall up there several months ago, I went to get a spare key made, and had the option to get one with the maple leaf all over it. (I went with the Homer Simpson one...but, I *did* have the option for the maple leaf)
Over the course of the time that I've been with my bf, he's gotten me quite a bit of "Canadian stuff". I'll have to ask him where he got my socks with the maple leaf on them, but I'm sure it was at Zellers or the Bay or somewhere like that. I also have an Old Navy shirt with the maple leaf on it.
My point is, that this stuff, from what I've seen, is relatively easy to find in the Vancouver area (and *not* in the tourist areas either).
Again, like so many things, I believe that this is probably just a matter of perspective, and what we, as individuals with differing backgrounds, see in our everyday lives.
But, the maple leaf is definitely out there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robynator
I remember driving through country roads in the USA and seeing random signs claiming, "God Bless America". I saw it many times. I saw it on decorations. I saw it on clothing. I saw it on old truck stop signs, on church signs, and emblazed across bumper stickers. It almost makes American patriotism mythical and ethereal.
Depending on where you go in the US, it can be very common. And, it's become even more common since 9/11.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robynator
And I'm only mentioning this because I've seen it, and I've noticed you've claimed Canadians are more patriotic in prior posts. And I know that your visits to Canada generally revolve around curling, so you're generally being surrounded by the type of Canadians who really do like to hype up their love for being Canadian, especially if they can throw it in the face of an unassuming American. Because to them, being Canadian is being NOT American. And they want you to know that they're proud that they're not American. And it makes them feel superior. I think it's idiotic.
I *will* say that it's also not everyone that I come in contact with in this setting. It's just an extremely vocal (and oft times annoying) minority.
I don't know that one can make generalizations about people involved in curling. I know, from what I've seen, there are MANY types. Especially in the league that we are in, it's not so much "sports", but "social".
But, yes, I can definitely see your point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robynator
Of course, these are my infamous mass generalizations.
They are appreciated here. Thanks so much for your input.
The American Flag can even be found in several churches even!
The regionalism in Canada sounds a lot like life in the U.S before the Civil War. Even after the Revolution there was a lot of regionalism going on. Even adopting a single constitution was a fierce debate.
The Civil War permanently changed this attitude. Instead of saying "The United States are" Americans began to say, "The United States is" Subsequent events, like WWI, the Depression, WWII and the Cold War cemented this patriotism. Today, while Americans are fond of their region, they don't consider it "their country" .The United States is their country.
As Canadians get further removed from their Franco-British roots, the same thing that happened to the U.S will probably happen to Canadians too. (Without the Civil War, of course!)
There is more to Canada than Tim Hortons and health care, that's for sure!
I'm the same way. And, I've been called on it several times when I've been up north. Like it's a "bad thing" or something....
I just tell them that it's simply because I feel *so* comfortable there. (Which is true...but, most of the time, it still confuses the heck out of them.)
I hate silence. I don't always have to be the one talking, but if no one is, I'll certainly start. LOL
Your the same way as me lol. I can't handle silence if it's ever quiet i'll shout out "Someone talk!" Even when I was in highschool I would do it during tests. (I got in trouble... ALOT!)
why is being "patriotic" equated to being "a crazy fanatic?" This is what drives me batty with the canuck viewpoints I am reading. Patriotism means believing in your country, not being ashamed to be a member of your country (despite one's president apologizing for historical issues), waving a flag during major holidays, and just loving your country. Again, the snobbery and judgment amazes me. I don't get it at all.
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But Tim Horton's knows this, which is why all their ads revolve around Canadian patriotism and hockey.
