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as a South Carolinian born and bred and african american, i see the white washing of history as the offensive threat to our country and liberty NOT a battle flag of the Confederacy.
If the people who are complaining about the flag would use their energies to actually treat people with equal respect and as equals(this includes northerners who complain about it but treat people of color up north no better than they say white southerners do) then we would have real change. Pulling down a flag would only hide the symbol-assuaging some guilt or placating revisionists, but would not end the hate and ignorance and division that plagues this entire country on a day to day basis.
many of the people, blacks included, complaining about the flag self segregate, and do not feel they should equally treat others with kindness and lose the anger. So no one is right here--but let us decide as SCers how to proceed, not letting some mouth breathers and politiicians seeking votes tell us how to live . I bet they would be mighty sore in Mass, Vt, Calif and other places if we told them what to celebrate and hang on their flag poles, or on their lawns.
That is from the heart CJ, I like that and respect that.............. Going to gather my thoughts and post more later.......... Well done CJ......
I don't hate anybody who supports the flag, or even mildly dislike them. I will always have my opinion of it, and others will always have theirs. I know that a symbol only has as much power as you are willing to give it, and the only way I might change my opinion is when the white power groups stop using it as a symbol for their ideals, and when people stop allowing these kind of groups to misrepresent what is obviously an important piece fo history to them. It is not the symbol itself that I oppose, it is what it has come to represent to so many people. There is nothing self-segregating in the least about that.
thanks, it did come from the heart--i cant believe people are arguing about a piece of cloth, while we have so many real matters to contend with. If they were honest and of good intentions, they would try and get to know people across racial, political and ideological lines instead of shouting about a symbol of history or a symbol of hate.
again there are many symbols that i am offended by everyday yet i am not marching in the streets to have them removed. and i dont go and try and take away the sovereignty of a state from the outside. i live in pennsylvania, i am not trying to change the culture here, although i would love to, but this is their state and it has its own unique history and background and people.
there are many pvjd, in the black community, who do self segregate. I saw it in University, i see it where i work and in the city where i live. i see blacks not reaching over to get to know whites, and i see whites not reaching out to get to know black people-just as people. this is all over the country and world. Using the rebel flag as a scapegoat from really sitting down to talk and get to know one another is so boring and pathetic. I know people in my own family who still say ignorant things about whites, and i correct them. they talk about the rebel flag and oppression yet they have good educations, homes, jobs and a very well to do lifestyle. so no one is holding them back by flying a flag, anymore than its a problem having an MLK jr day.
Carolinajack you couldn't have said it any better. We have people who have lost jobs, homes etc. The economy is really bad and yet this same topic goes on and on. People who hate won't change or if they will it won't be overnight. I found just talking to people is the first step of understanding.
there are many pvjd, in the black community, who do self segregate. I saw it in University, i see it where i work and in the city where i live. i see blacks not reaching over to get to know whites, and i see whites not reaching out to get to know black people-just as people. this is all over the country and world. Using the rebel flag as a scapegoat from really sitting down to talk and get to know one another is so boring and pathetic. I know people in my own family who still say ignorant things about whites, and i correct them. they talk about the rebel flag and oppression yet they have good educations, homes, jobs and a very well to do lifestyle. so no one is holding them back by flying a flag, anymore than its a problem having an MLK jr day.
I hear you, and my issue is still that to me, as long as the flag is allowed to be used by racist hate groups, to me that is what it will represent. I am glad that your family members have grown up with good educations and jobs, but I fail to see how that erases centuries of oppression. Overt racism, such as calling someone a name, is different than say, not investing funds in a hospital in the inner city, or paying good salaries to school teachers in the inner city so qualified teachers will want to work there. As long as there are racist groups who support this kind the action that use the flag as their symbol, I do not support the flag. I am not trying to change anybody's mind on here, it is just something that I feel strongly about. Not trying to argue or criticize if anyone thinks differently.
I hear you, and my issue is still that to me, as long as the flag is allowed to be used by racist hate groups, to me that is what it will represent. I am glad that your family members have grown up with good educations and jobs, but I fail to see how that erases centuries of oppression. Overt racism, such as calling someone a name, is different than say, not investing funds in a hospital in the inner city, or paying good salaries to school teachers in the inner city so qualified teachers will want to work there. As long as there are racist groups who support this kind the action that use the flag as their symbol, I do not support the flag. I am not trying to change anybody's mind on here, it is just something that I feel strongly about. Not trying to argue or criticize if anyone thinks differently.
Nothing can erase or change the past, but we as a society can learn from it and move forward....not to make the same mistakes and not to keep stirring the pot.
I agree, and I challenge all flag supporters to take the symbol back from the hate groups and let it represent what it is intended to. I never see anyone complain about the racist tshirts, bumper stickers, and buttons with the flag on it next to a racist slogan or picture. They turn a blind eye as to not criticise the flag. Why aren't people angry at this, as opposed to being angry at people who don't support the flag?
as a South Carolinian born and bred and african american, i see the white washing of history as the offensive threat to our country and liberty NOT a battle flag of the Confederacy.
If the people who are complaining about the flag would use their energies to actually treat people with equal respect and as equals(this includes northerners who complain about it but treat people of color up north no better than they say white southerners do) then we would have real change. Pulling down a flag would only hide the symbol-assuaging some guilt or placating revisionists, but would not end the hate and ignorance and division that plagues this entire country on a day to day basis.
many of the people, blacks included, complaining about the flag self segregate, and do not feel they should equally treat others with kindness and lose the anger. So no one is right here--but let us decide as SCers how to proceed, not letting some mouth breathers and politiicians seeking votes tell us how to live . I bet they would be mighty sore in Mass, Vt, Calif and other places if we told them what to celebrate and hang on their flag poles, or on their lawns.
.
The "revisionists" are the ones who claim the flag does not represent racism, the view that you can turn a class of humans into objects used for economic enrichment of a few. They are lying to themselves by trying to have it both ways.
As far as the decision to fly a flag that signifies oppression of the many, and as we've seen since it was rehoisted in 1962, the willingness to keep blacks as second-class citizens, that is indeed SC's, although to use a quite similiar comparison, I do believe that Hesse should have a right to cry foul if Bavaria decided for history's sake to rehoist the Swastika above its parliament building.
But it not that quite cut and dried, for there is one color so far unmentioned that trumps both black and white here, and unites them as the former plantation system diveded them:
Green, as in US Dollar green.
What got 'em to remove the battle flag from atop the state house in the first place and try to hide it in the corner?
Sure wasn't their conscience; haven't got one on this issue.
No, it was the boycott by "mouth breathers", like the NAACP that finally got Rhett and Scarlett's attention. 'Cause without the tourists coming to golf at Myrtle, or schlep around the Battery, their businesses are toast, and everybodies' fat butt is back out in the cotton field.
And you just can't afford the payments on the Jag, or the condo on Hilton Head by doing that.
no not saying you are arguing at all. I hear you but it is clearly matters of opinion. If you want to erase centuries of oppression-taking away someones symbols of heritage will not do the trick-it only inflames and not just the hate groups but others who might sympathize with you. There are many symbols of oppression, one can say the American flag was one before the battle of northern aggression. The flag was flown during slavery of africans in the North as well as the South. I am not arguing that it is a tool of oppression any more than the Confederate flag is--im saying relativism and revision of history to suit only one side is hypocritical.
you deal with overt or covert racism by dealing with real issues that make for such conditions. the inner heart of man. we deal with it by dealing with the sin of hate, the sin of greed and the sin of racial division NOT but reverting to childs play of arguing over a flag. wresting the flag from those who use it for hate will not change the history and significance of the Civil War or the symbols that come from it. we still have monuments, we still have battle fields, we still have the history and the museums. There are symbols like the rainbow flag for the homosexual movement that cities around the country(including the one i am currently in) use taxpayers money to put up--to me it is offensive, and a symbol of hate and trying to oppress religious liberty and traditional family values--but forcing them to take it down will not stop what the people think and do in their hearts or on the streets, it will only embolden them.
no we must fight the real causes of racism and oppression and not just from one side. Investing funds in hospitals comes from all taxpayers, not just those who use inner city hospitals--it comes from the pockets of men and women you might call racists and hatemongers. we can say it is tyrannical and oppressive to pay ANY salaries of state run(public) schools--esp since i wouldnt send my children to one but still are forced to pay for it and the Unions get to decide what is qualified, good teachers and we cant even ask for results because there are people who think testing and accountability is evil.
so its a two way street, one cant have it all one way and ignore the will of the people. and the will of the people for now want the flag over our grand state--and the tyranny of the minority should not trample on the sovereignty of the people.
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