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Yea I was actually surprised how much it cost them for the house they purchased. We went out to visit a little over two years ago and we weren't very impressed considering we had been hearing how much cheaper arizona real estate was.
Arizona real estate is definitely cheaper than in Chicago. We were looking in the Western suburbs before we decided to accept a job transfer to Phoenix. The house we bought in the Phoenix suburbs cost about 60% of what a similar house would cost in the western suburbs. Property taxes are about 20% of what we would have paid in the western suburbs. Although there is a "you get what you pay for" aspect here because the best schools here are not as good as the best schools in the Chicago suburbs.
And of course Phoenix doesn't have charming suburbs like Glenn Ellyn or Hinsdale. Everything here is new. Some people hate how "cookie cutter" it is but it doesn't bother us.
Why are they not getting the skills they need? Is it due to bad teachers, no books or supplies, decrepit school buildings? or maybe these low income kids (and their disconnected parents) need to look in the mirror, take some responsibility and make themselves successful regardless of the school.
Or not. It's no coincidence that when CPS was not legally bound to integration, schools suddenly became more white.
Thanks to Runuova and Lookout Kid for infusing some sense into this thread. I don't even have the energy to be angry over this one. Black people responsible for white flight? Hilarious.
What are white people going to do when they're not America's majority anymore (because you already aren't the majority of the world's population)? Your day is coming. Fast.
This might have already been stated (I did not read through all pages)...
But we shouldn't forget that in the 90s, while there was white flight from places from Dolton, Riverdale, Calumet City, Harvey, and South Holland to NWI, Orland Park, Tinley Park, etc., there was also some Black flight from those places to places such as Matteson, Crete, Richton Park, Park Forest and as the vast majority of White people have already left, there continues to be Black flight from those places as well. It is like one big cat and mouse chase...
And the Black people that moved into Matteson criticized the Whites who were moving from there to Frankfort...but the Black people were also criticized by other Black people when they moved to Matteson from Dolton proclaiming "they wanted a new house" when the real reason (and this is coming from a Black person) was because "too many Chicago folk were coming to Dolton"...read that statement again: "too many Chicago folk"....
What I am getting at is YES, there are WHITE people who move for PURELY racist reasons...and then there are many who may not be racist or discriminatory in their actions, but also don't want to lose their only asset...Guess what? I consistently hear many of us say "I ain't living there, it's too many ghetto Black folk, but I also aint moving there because it's too many racist White folk so I'm just gonna live where the RICH Black folk live"...And that's how we get to places like Homewood, Flossmoor, Olympia Fields, Matteson...those suburbs may not be desirable to White people overall but they are desirable to many Black families who desire a nice home in reasonably safe neighborhoods but also do not want to be in the minority (or even actually want to be in the majority in some cases). But is this not a form of flight as well? Let's not pounce on the OP for being honest.....even if he were racist and had racist intentions, better for someone to be honest than to be covert with statements such as "I moved because the area was too 'congested'" as they move to another heavily congested (but Whiter) area.
Last edited by Northwest Indiana; 03-29-2015 at 06:37 AM..
Or not. It's no coincidence that when CPS was not legally bound to integration, schools suddenly became more white.
Thanks to Runuova and Lookout Kid for infusing some sense into this thread. I don't even have the energy to be angry over this one. Black people responsible for white flight? Hilarious.
What are white people going to do when they're not America's majority anymore (because you already aren't the majority of the world's population)? Your day is coming. Fast.
And yet you make the statement "your day is coming fast"
What I am getting at is YES, there are WHITE people who move for PURELY racist reasons...and then there are many who may not be racist or discriminatory in their actions, but also don't want to lose their only asset...Guess what? I consistently hear many of us say "I ain't living there, it's too many ghetto Black folk, but I also aint moving there because it's too many racist White folk so I'm just gonna live where the RICH Black folk live"...And that's how we get to places like Homewood, Flossmoor, Olympia Fields, Matteson...those suburbs may not be desirable to White people overall but they are desirable to many Black families who desire a nice home in reasonably safe neighborhoods but also do not want to be in the minority (or even actually want to be in the majority in some cases). But is this not a form of flight as well? Let's not pounce on the OP for being honest.....even if he were racist and had racist intentions, better for someone to be honest than to be covert with statements such as "I moved because the area was too 'congested'" as they move to another heavily congested (but Whiter) area.
I have never in my life met a black person who moved from an area because white people moved in. Also, when some black people move away from deteriorating neighborhoods, it's ACTUALLY because the neighborhood is deteriorating, unlike white people who say that before the neighborhood has gone bad. Chances are, those black people who move have already lived in the ghetto, because upper-class black people have probably always lived around white people, albeit isolated. Black people cannot stop businesses from moving out and services from becoming substandard, which is the primary reason they move. Not because the "ghetto blacks" have come.
I have never in my life met a black person who moved from an area because white people moved in. Also, when some black people move away from deteriorating neighborhoods, it's ACTUALLY because the neighborhood is deteriorating, unlike white people who say that before the neighborhood has gone bad. Chances are, those black people who move have already lived in the ghetto, because upper-class black people have probably always lived around white people, albeit isolated. Black people cannot stop businesses from moving out and services from becoming substandard, which is the primary reason they move. Not because the "ghetto blacks" have come.
Where did I say or imply that there were Black people who moved from an area because white people moved in? And since you brought that up, that DOES happen, but usually not by choice (see: Gentrification).
And while some upper-class black people have always lived around white people, there are many who are upper-class that have lived at most in a racially balanced area...Also, by upper-class, I really mean upper middle class families with six figure incomes and in white collar professions...not necessarily millionaires...many have been upwardly mobile and moved from lower-class or even middle-income city neighborhoods to middle-class and upper-middle class predominantly Black suburbs...and these are folks that EASILY could afford to live in Frankfort, or Oak Brook, or Orland, Naperville, Palos Park, etc...
Also, are you Black or around Blacks for a substantial amount of time? The reason I ask this is because if you have been around many Black people, you WILL definitely hear people say "Yeah, there's too many of us now"...call it "self-hating" or "uncle tom" or whatever, I'm just stating the truth of what I have heard people say...people just don't like to admit that this is being said, but it is...now, is it as damaging as white flight that has decimated area? Not at all, but the thought is no better or worse than people saying "Yeah, there's too many of THEM now".
What are white people going to do when they're not America's majority anymore (because you already aren't the majority of the world's population)? Your day is coming. Fast.
sigh, it doesn't matter who's majority/minority, but maybe I didn't do a good job of conveying that? It's not about skin color to me, it's about working hard, being respectful, focusing on your education regardless of your surroundings and to quit making excuses and looking to the government for solutions. The government effs up everything they touch! btw, I'm already a minority in my subdivision. The majority here is now Asian/Indian and my home is not for sale. And our day is not coming because I expect my kids (and their kids) to do at least as well, if not better than myself and I believe they're well on their way to becoming productive, successful members of society, which is what really matters.
and fwiw, the black population in the US is expected to remain fairly flat over the next 50 years. The Hispanic and Asian population is what's expected to rise sharply. Comprende mi amigo?
Last edited by flamadiddle; 03-29-2015 at 09:55 AM..
This might have already been stated (I did not read through all pages)...
But we shouldn't forget that in the 90s, while there was white flight from places from Dolton, Riverdale, Calumet City, Harvey, and South Holland to NWI, Orland Park, Tinley Park, etc., there was also some Black flight from those places to places such as Matteson, Crete, Richton Park, Park Forest and as the vast majority of White people have already left, there continues to be Black flight from those places as well. It is like one big cat and mouse chase...
And the Black people that moved into Matteson criticized the Whites who were moving from there to Frankfort...but the Black people were also criticized by other Black people when they moved to Matteson from Dolton proclaiming "they wanted a new house" when the real reason (and this is coming from a Black person) was because "too many Chicago folk were coming to Dolton"...read that statement again: "too many Chicago folk"....
What I am getting at is YES, there are WHITE people who move for PURELY racist reasons...and then there are many who may not be racist or discriminatory in their actions, but also don't want to lose their only asset...Guess what? I consistently hear many of us say "I ain't living there, it's too many ghetto Black folk, but I also aint moving there because it's too many racist White folk so I'm just gonna live where the RICH Black folk live"...And that's how we get to places like Homewood, Flossmoor, Olympia Fields, Matteson...those suburbs may not be desirable to White people overall but they are desirable to many Black families who desire a nice home in reasonably safe neighborhoods but also do not want to be in the minority (or even actually want to be in the majority in some cases). But is this not a form of flight as well? Let's not pounce on the OP for being honest.....even if he were racist and had racist intentions, better for someone to be honest than to be covert with statements such as "I moved because the area was too 'congested'" as they move to another heavily congested (but Whiter) area.
Thank you for understanding my thoughts. I've loved reading the different posts on this subject. Here are my current thoughts on what's been written so far.
1. You hit the nail on the head with the comments from other Black households that are fleeing the South Side and poorer South suburbs. My African-American friends (yes I have many and I've mentioned my Berwyn situation) would probably fit in that boat. They seem to like Bronzeville/Hyde Park/Beverly for the city, and Matteson/ Olympia Fields/Flossmoor/Bolingbrook for the suburbs. Even though they ALL shop at Orland Square, it's too far from churches, friends/family, and hair salons to be considered at the moment.
2. I thought long and hard before writing this post, as I knew some would take offense and criticize my intentions. Unless you've lived in a White Flight area, it's hard to understand how quickly the neighborhood can become unstable and undesirable. The African-Americans moving to these large apartment buildings in Berwyn are not middle to upper income families, but low to lower-middle income large families that are moving in from rather rough areas. With that comes the social ills long considered an "urban" phenomenon. It only takes a few bad apples to really change an entire town. My fear is that I'm watching this happen before my very eyes.
3. When I looked here in 2013, the town was generally well kept, and while the schools weren't the best, they were certainly better that they were in Logan Square. My son is going to school in La Grange at his mother's house, so I really wasn't as concerned about schools here, but wanted something at least "better", which Berwyn certainly provides. However, if my son were ever to live with me full time, schools would be my number one concern. Long term I would sell my house, use a friend's address in Oak Park, or pay up for private school so my son could get a better chance in life. It would be nice if the schools were performing, but my son will not be a guinea pig and deserves the best I can provide within reason.
4. When considering Berwyn, I only knew Berwyn from my younger days, and fondly remembered the Czech Plaza, Cermak Plaza, and all of the family that lived around here. I thought they were just being racist (and honestly some were), and I prided myself on having an open mind. When I looked at the census data, it appeared to have decent demographics, and seemed to be relatively stable. Shame on me for not looking at 2000 or 1990, as they present a starkly different picture of just how quickly our white families moved out of here. Regardless, I love that Berwyn did simply give up like our neighbor Cicero, but is actively working on making our town a better place to live.
5. I really respect Toria T's comments on here. She is honest about where she will and won't live, and seems to have a good perspective on the Berwyn situation. She's been courteous in her comments, and can see both sides of the argument. It's easy to live in a wealthy white suburb and accuse other people of being racist and intolerant, but much harder when you are actually living in the area in question.
Thank you all for your thoughts on the situation. It's really great to hear all of the opinions, even if I don't agree with everyone's.
Also, are you Black or around Blacks for a substantial amount of time? The reason I ask this is because if you have been around many Black people, you WILL definitely hear people say "Yeah, there's too many of us now"...call it "self-hating" or "uncle tom" or whatever, I'm just stating the truth of what I have heard people say...people just don't like to admit that this is being said, but it is...now, is it as damaging as white flight that has decimated area? Not at all, but the thought is no better or worse than people saying "Yeah, there's too many of THEM now".
I'm black, and I don't hear that because I don't associate with "those" kinda people.
It's not about skin color to me, it's about working hard, being respectful, focusing on your education regardless of your surroundings and to quit making excuses and looking to the government for solutions.
Blah blah blah. These words are right out of the handbook. Thanks for proving my point.
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Also, when some black people move away from deteriorating neighborhoods, it's ACTUALLY because the neighborhood is deteriorating, unlike white people who say that before the neighborhood has gone bad. Chances are, those black people who move have already lived in the ghetto, because upper-class black people have probably always lived around white people, albeit isolated. Black people cannot stop businesses from moving out and services from becoming substandard, which is the primary reason they move. Not because the "ghetto blacks" have come.
