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My husband and I are expecting our first baby, and we're seriously considering Berwyn for purchasing our first home. Here's why:
*We love the bungalows there
*We're very interested in diversity (we live in East Roger's Park)
*We want to try and stay under $200,000 for a SFH to keep the mortgage down (I'm reducing my hours at work rather than pay half my salary for childcare)
*We both grew up in cookie-cutter suburbs and do NOT want that for our children.
*We lived in Oak Park for a while and enjoyed it, but it was a little too hemp-skirt liberal for our taste (and their taxes are too high). We're very liberal and well-educated, but more blue collar in our lifestyle. Berwyn seems like a more comfortable mix for us.
I've read a lot of interesting forums on Berwyn here, but I'm still torn. What are your thoughts on the following:
*Is Berwyn safe for a young family (keep in mind, I live in East RP on Birchwood and Sheridan, and I'm comfortable here)
*If we hate the schools, what are the odds we could sell in five or so years when the baby hit school age?
*Are there enough young families living there to make it fun for a young child/enough children to socialize with?
*How is Berwyn weathering the foreclosure blitz? Has crime followed in the wake of it?
*How's the library? (We're big readers, and libraries are VERY impt. to us. Oh, how we miss OP's delicious library: the best I've ever seen)
The vast majority of Berwyn is pretty "cookie-cutter", albeit from a different era. Most of the bungalows their were thrown up by quick buck developers 50-60 years ago. If you found a place under $200K it probably needs more than a little TLC and might even be plagued by negative issues with regard to location and even environmental issues. All those "blue collar type jobs" from long ago had plenty of toxic workplaces...
Crime is not as big a deal as in Cicero, or parts of Oak Park , or Chicago, but the potential for crime is far worse in Berwyn than in an area with more stable housing. Shifts in demographics go hand in hand with continued loss of jobs...
The mass of older Eastern European types owned their places with VERY small mortgages and paid 'em off a long time ago, foreclosure among them is not common. There have been flippers and fix-up types that have gotten burned. It is sort of two edged sword -- if you want a block of old people as neighbors you don't have to worry about foreclosure, but who knows what happens as the die, the other choice may be to find a place with younger neighbors that are one lay-off from foreclosure...
The Berwyn library, like most other services in town, reflect a pretty "penny pinching" attitude toward things. That said, pretty much all suburban libraries have no limits on using neighboring libraries, you could use Oak Park, North Riverside, LaGrange, Elmhurst or any other of the many large libraries around...
I have no direct experience with young parents in Berwyn, but my gut tells me that scene is nothing like that in Oak Park, LaGrange or Elmhurst either. Frankly with falling prices I think it may make a lot of sense to rent in one of those towns rather than own in shakier town.
Most of the bungalows their were thrown up by quick buck developers 50-60 years ago.
I think Chet is mostly correct with his Berwyn advice, but this particular sentence got under my skin. Berwyn Bungalows (like all Chicago bungalows) are much older than this, and date to the 1910s-1930s, with the peak being the pre-depression 1920s. This makes most bungalows more than 80 years old. They were not "thrown together", but were built by skilled craftsmen using time-tested techniques that were lost in the housing development gap of the Great Depression and World War II. If you compare a 1920s bungalow to a post-war Cape Cod of the same size, the construction quality is vastly better in the bungalow. These houses were built to last, and are some of the most durable housing stock available.
Bungalow haters like to think the Chicago Bungalow was just an early form of suburan tract housing because of the conformity of design (there's not much variation), but they are far superior in terms of construction quality. And Berwyn has a really great collection of classic Chicago bungalows that have been well-maintained compared to many city "bungalow belt" neighborhoods. One of the reasons for Berwyn's resurgence is the classic housing stock, and this is an asset that many other suburbs lack. And it shouldn't be downplayed as an early form of Levittown.
Yes, there are many young middle class families moving to Berwyn at this time. But I don't think they live there in large enough concentrations to change the general culture of the place. It still feels like Berwyn. Crime is a larger issue than in suburbs like Downer's Grove or Naperville, but it is safer than most of the surrounding communities--including much of Oak Park. The schools are an issue, and you may want to look at sendind your kids to private schools or moving to a better school district. This is the primary reason I'm not considering Berwyn myself. As this economic downturn proves, it's always good to have all options available to you, and why lock yourself into a community where you'll be forced to move in five years? But of course, the real estate savings in Berwyn might pay some pretty significant private school tuition!
Hey, my grandfather was one of those developers! Honest. He built places in several areas, and he moved FAST to MAKE MONEY. I don't mean to denigrate the quality for the time -- lots of places were built with solid masonry construction (face brick over courses of common), full plaster-over-lathe walls, full-flow cast-iron drain lines/bronze fittings and more, but the age of many of the system (especially furnaces, water supplies, multiple layers of roofing) mean that there is lots of stuff that needs attention. Throw in single pane that even with the best storms are still far less airtight than a modern double glazed unit, electric service that barely anticipated more than light bulbs and toasters, garages on packed dirt foundations and other pre-WWII "state of the art" construction techniques and while it is true that the main structure will 'stand' forever, but not exactly with ZERO costs...
Far from being a bungalow hater, I know there are some GEMS, but they are few and far between and NOT priced sub-$200K unless there is REAL negative right next to 'em. Heck, for lovers of houses there are stretches of Maywood and such that would knock your socks off, 'course you'd have to be a little goofy to sink money into place where even the "house lovers" know they will not get it back.
The bottom line that struck me on the OP was that they "grew up" in a cookie cutter subdivision. Now they are having kids and don't want that. Well surprise, even in towns with large tracts of cookie cutter there are ways to avoid that. There are section of Elmhurst that are gorgeous, ditto for Downers Grove, Libertyville, Naperville, Glen Ellyn, Northbrook, Wheaton, Aurora, et cetera that are TOTALLY non-cookie cutter. And there are some bargins, right now I know of a few places they were in the process of being fixed-up and the jokers intent on flipping ending up losing out to foreclosure. It is hard to get 'em for sub-$200K, but if you have the skills/ability/desire to put these places back together they would easily be worth much more than even the nicest place in Berwynn...
People should understand what they are getting into. The "private schools" in Berwyn are pretty much associated with churches, and frankly not well supported. I say this as a guy that has ties to these places, not as a negative. Again, I wish it was different, but it ain't. If I was looking for a "low cost" way to go that would not be on my list.
The "private schools" in Berwyn are pretty much associated with churches, and frankly not well supported. I say this as a guy that has ties to these places, not as a negative. Again, I wish it was different, but it ain't. If I was looking for a "low cost" way to go that would not be on my list.
The good thing about private schools is that they're not tied to municipal or district boundaries. So you could live in Berwyn, but send your kids to Fenwick in Oak Park if that suited you. Or somewhere in the city or close to your office.
The age of the systems of a house is a major issue when you buy old, but I'm assuming that most people know this. And the traditional brick Chicago bungalow is a very durable house if you are looking to extensively remodel. Construction quality and aged or obsolete systems are apples and oranges, IMO.
For my family, Berwyn is not an option because: (1) If I move that far out, I want good public schools and (2) Cuturally it's not a fit for me.
When I owned rentals I had absolutely no problem buying some place that was framed out 2x4s from the 70s or 80s and covered with composition siding or aluminum. Not the prettiest stuff, but it is cheap to maintain. And that is what I was getting at -- you can live very thriftily in all kinds of places. Or you can fool yourself into thinking some "solid" place is never going to cost you a dime -- never happens that way.
Not so much an argument, as another perspective. Similarly I know kids that would (did) feel very ill at ease knowing their parents were living thriftily but sinking $10,000+/yr on a private school tuition. While I suppose there are situation that you could justify that as a kind of "fill in" on property tax, I think that is sorta like saying "I decided to get a Corolla and stack $30,000 in the trunk so it would drive like a Lexus" -- there are differences in where one lives, of which schools are not the only factor.
I do appreciate the comment about a 'cultural fit' and I think that cannot be overlooked -- afterall the OP did ask about other "child minded families/diversity/library/safety" and in most of categories Berwyn is not stellar...
I’ve been in Berwyn going on 6 years now. My wife and I moved here from Oak Park. I’ll try to respond to your questions as honestly as possible…
*Is Berwyn safe for a young family (keep in mind, I live in East RP on Birchwood and Sheridan, and I'm comfortable here)
Yes, by urban standards. There is more crime than Naperville and Downers Grove, as Lookout points out, but it’s safe by City neighborhood standards – which is essentially what Berwyn is. I’d probably avoid buying around the larger apartment concentrations but even there, if you’re comfortable with Rogers Park, you’ll be fine. I’m sure you know how to use common sense and be aware of your surroundings (good advice even in Downers!).
*If we hate the schools, what are the odds we could sell in five or so years when the baby hit school age?
Probably pretty good. Berwyn will remain desirable because of its location and housing stock. Since the mid-1980s, and possibly longer, there's always been a flow of young DINKs, gays and lesbians, and young professional first time home buyers who have come and sometimes gone. I don't see that changing, and seems to be even accelerating a bit as prices, and taxes, have skyrocketed in Oak Park. And at some of the low prices you’re seeing today (200k-225k for a very decent bungalow), it’ll be hard to lose money. I think you’ll build some decent equity in 5 years if you buy smart and don’t go crazy dumping money into the place (i.e. take your time and get a house that’s somewhat updated and has all of its original elements intact – Berwyn's bungalows and Victorians are well built but get very expen$ive when you have to completely renovate).
Though Berwyn schools get a bad rap, some of them could give you a viable public school option. Emerson and Irving Elementary on the south side are actually good schools and attained a higher ISAT score than some Oak Park elementary schools in ‘08. Heritage middle school (south side again) isn’t bad either. Morton needs work but even there, if you have an intelligent and level headed kid, a good education is possible. I’d try to pick an area that is served by an elementary school that has decent test scores, in case you don’t want to move and don’t want to spring for a private school (though there are good private school options in this area for sure).
*Are there enough young families living there to make it fun for a young child/enough children to socialize with?
Absolutely. There are a lot of young parents involved in things. If you do move here, I highly recommend joining Berwyn C.A.R.E.S. (Citizens Aligned to Renew Education for Students). That will give you a chance to network with other young parents who value education like you do.
*How is Berwyn weathering the foreclosure blitz? Has crime followed in the wake of it?
As well as could be expected. Berwyn was a “destination” suburb for a lot of moderate to lower income Hispanics during the housing boom, many of whom, with all due respect, had no business buying, especially at some of the prices homes were selling for. It got a little crazy and, sadly, more than a few got in way over their heads. The good news is the foreclosures are being purchased and going back on the tax rolls, albeit at prices lower than most residents would like to see. But for a buyer, that’s good news. And given how tight credit is, those who are buying tend to be more stable than the folks they’re replacing. That should pan out in the "plus" column in the long term.
*How's the library? (We're big readers, and libraries are VERY impt. to us. Oh, how we miss OP's delicious library: the best I've ever seen).
It occupies the old Czech-American building at the corner of Riverside Drive and Harlem. You should go visit it and see what you think. It’s pretty good, though not as delicious as OP’s library (then again, few are). But on that score, you wouldn’t be far from OP (about 5-10 minutes) and, don’t quote me, but you may be able to get a reciprocal library card. I know you can for the Chicago Public Library system with a Berwyn library card. You also have access to Riverside’s beautiful library as well if you live in south Berwyn.
I have a great deal of respect for Lookout Kid’s and Chet’s views. Two smart guys, and they raise valid points. I don’t know if I 100% agree with everything they’re saying here though -- particularly about the “old Berwyn” culture still dominating. That's pretty rapidly diminishing, though it does of course exist. Nor do I think you should think that you’ll necessarily be “forced” to move in 5 years. As I said above, you can pick an neighborhood with a decent public school, and if you watch what your child is doing and stay involved, there’s no reason for he/she to get a substandard education, even if you go the public school route. And, of course, you can get involved to help improve the schools. That's possible also.
I was hoping Bru would chime in. Enhances my thoughts, especially with regard to some of the upgraders/flippers who got stuck between the reality of overspending and spiraling ARMs...
Berwyn is certainly not alone in that regard. In general the flippers hurt more than they helped in pretty much any town they were active in...
Couple a large supply of non-updated and affordable old houses owned by seniors with very high demand from moderate/low income Latinos who didn't have much of a reference point for quality and yes, we saw a lot of rehabs and flippers -- some better than others. It's easier to fix a short cut rehab than a teardown though, and it's good the city's housing stock remained largely intact during the housing boom. But I'd agree with you in that the majority of these fly-by-nighters were of limited value, at best, to the community.
I don’t know if I 100% agree with everything they’re saying here though -- particularly about the “old Berwyn” culture still dominating. That's pretty rapidly diminishing, though it does of course exist. Nor do I think you should think that you’ll necessarily be “forced” to move in 5 years.
In terms of the "old Berwyn culture", you would certainly know better than I. I'll defer to you on that one, and I'd love to hear how the culture of Berwyn is changing. I grew up in an uppper middle class family in a largely working class town. My extended family is multi-racial due to marriages and adoptions. And my family is just one generation removed from the farms, railroads, and factories. So I'm comfortable around most types of people in the world. But my wife and I both have advanced degrees, love fine dining and culture, and want to live around some like-minded people. Perhaps we are a bit yuppified. Are the educated urban liberals creating sizeable enclaves in Berwyn? Or are they scattered throughout in small concentrations? I suspect the latter--but would like to hear your thoughts on this.
My comments on being "forced out in five years" were based on the assumption that the OP was uncomfortable with the public schools in Berwyn. If this isn't the case, that comment doesn't apply.
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