Is South Shore on the come up? (gated, golf course)

[silvertonesx24]

Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool

What largely Black neighborhood in Chicago has really ever gentrified anyway?

Uptown, although I'm not sure if that was ever majority black.


90+ black neighborhoods have no chance though.

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by dtcbnd03

I don't know if any area has more beautiful housing stock than the southside of Chicago. Hyde Park, Kenwood, MLK drive...just some huge gorgeous homes and multi-units.

I'm doing a single family home flip in Bronzeville on 41st street and there is development alllllll up and down the blocks.

That's great to hear, I hope it keeps up

[TBideon]

Bronzeville is a bit of an enigma. Tons of well-priced new and relatively new residential, yet with limited commercial activity. There is some limited Asian migration in the north end too, which always helps, but good god are there a lot of empty lots.

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by Larry Siegel

They didn't pay crap (pardon my grammar). My father-in-law had one of these jobs, and he lived in an 800 square foot house that today's middle class wouldn't be caught dead in.



You're basically defining the middle class in the 1960s as people who had opportunities, and the middle class in the 2010s as people who do not. They are different people with different skill sets. The working class of the 1960s, with high school educations and factory jobs, had some opportunity if they could get in one of the protected industries (autos and steel) that produced low-quality, uncompetitive products at high prices, and which started to lose massive amounts of money as soon as U.S. markets were opened to foreign competition. These jobs were strictly unionized and the positions were basically inherited, white male to white male. Only a small percentage of Americans ever had these jobs and they represent rent-seeking at its worst, a small politically influential minority racking up profits at the expense of everybody else. The overall standard of living in the 1960s was 1/3 to 1/2 what it is now - most working people lived VERY modestly - but, then as now, some people did very well; just different people. Now it's lawyers, MBAs, marketing professionals, human resources professionals (whatever those are), and massive numbers of tech workers. Times change and the needs of the economy change.



Yes, it is.

Well, that seems to be a popular explanation among Democrats certainly, and some Republicans too of course. We can't bring high paying jobs that do not require a college degree back or, even, that we never had them in the first place. So get off your lazy duff, get a college degree, become professional, and come on in for the big win.

I don't know. I see what's in the White House and I know something needs to be done about the increasing disparity between the haves and have nots. I don't think a very large portion of the public is buying the Democrat party line, whether what you say is true or not. I think it's considerably more complicated than how you describe it but, even if you are right, solutions need to be found, starting with the acknowledgement that not everyone can get a college degree and even if they could, there wouldn't be enough jobs to utilize all those college degrees.

I don't see that kind of discussion however, I see Democrats doubling down on their position of impossibility, and that's too bad. Hopefully, common sense prevails soon.

[Vlajos]

Automation has more than anything, eliminated the need for mass employment in manufacturing. Those jobs won't come back.

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by Vlajos

Automation has more than anything, eliminated the need for mass employment in manufacturing. Those jobs won't come back.

I fully expect this to be a Democrat 2020 campaign talking point. Unfortunately, I have my doubts over how well it'll play, particularly in red states.

[chet everett]

Originally Posted by Vlajos

Automation has more than anything, eliminated the need for mass employment in manufacturing. Those jobs won't come back.

...traditional "manufacturing" was not really a key component. Fact is back when South Shore was most densely populated, in the era following WWII through the late 60s, there were LOTS of people engaged in roles that were related to "clerical employment" handling the record keeping and paper based transactions that were important not just to businesses throughout the city, but also the functions associated with healthcare and governmental employment. These were not the "high paying" office careers of today but they did have requirements that included at least HS level literacy / comfort with arithmetic logic.

A very significant portion of the South Shore community was Jewish and included many owners of "small businesses" that included everything from jewelry and clothing stores to the sorts of family run accounting firms that were once very common.

As the violence of the 60s and changing expectations about the opportunity that was offered in suburban areas swept the area large numbers of Jewish families left for places like Buffalo Grove and Highland Park.

The once relatively racially integrated nicer parts of South Shore rapidly lost diversity. The educational expectations that have historically seen Jewish families who may have been merchants encourage their children to be "doctors or lawyers" did rub off on the broader neighborhood and there was once a solid stream of AA kids from places like Hyde Park High that did become professionals. Sadly the violence and white flight rapidly changed that dynamic.

I mention this history for several reasons: #1 A big part of what once was the "AA middle class" and the sort of aspirations that they shared with other ethnic groups was not really based on "manufacturing". #2 The problems with CPS dragging down families largely have been a 50 year story. #3 Efforts to revitalize communities have to include realistic understanding of the sorts of "workforce" that truly did exist and must include legitimate paths forward in the modern economy. For every true "knowledge worker" in technology focused role creating software / managing systems there are almost certainly many more employees that are actively engaged in the all kinds of "business stuff" that does not really anywhere near as much specialized study. The failure of CPS and frankly the City Colleges, and to a lesser extent the private universities, to respond with appropriate ways to high school kids to transition to the sorts of "vocational training" that once included "secretarial schools" or "business colleges" has quite literally stranded generations of people. If there was appropriate political will and a workforce that was skilled in doing things from staffing call centers, to working on as 'remote web shopper agents" those jobs would be located close to areas like South Shore instead of offshore or rural areas. US call centers are training workers to be super agents to stay competitive

It is better to have a range of opportunities scattered in multiple smaller spots through out Chicago than to use TIF funds and other economic incentives to increase employment in overheated Loop ++ areas. For younger parents who'd be better off with on-site daycare and a quick walk from elementary schools a focus on the sorts of work that can be a great stepping stone to more responsibility and opportunity needs to part of the solution.

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by BRU67

I fully expect this to be a Democrat 2020 campaign talking point. Unfortunately, I have my doubts over how well it'll play, particularly in red states.

I'm talking economics, not politics. Of course populist fools will push the idea that manufacturing will come back. that wins votes

[OKParker]

Originally Posted by TBideon

Bronzeville is a bit of an enigma. Tons of well-priced new and relatively new residential, yet with limited commercial activity. There is some limited Asian migration in the north end too, which always helps, but good god are there a lot of empty lots.

Agreed on the point that it doesn't make sense how there is no commercial activity. That is the main reason that it is hard to recommend Bronzeville to anyone.. I love the housing stock and the parks/lake nearby, but the lack of food options is a huge killer - I can't live somewhere where there are so few options around for the days when I don't want to cook.

[Larry Siegel]

Originally Posted by dtcbnd03

I don't know if any area has more beautiful housing stock than the southside of Chicago. Hyde Park, Kenwood, MLK drive...just some huge gorgeous homes and multi-units.

I'm doing a single family home flip in Bronzeville on 41st street and there is development alllllll up and down the blocks.

Yeah, you're in the sweet spot. Thanks for contributing to the preservation of an extraordinary area. I wish it had started earlier, but it is what it is.