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I just did, lady. If you don't like the answer than that is your problem. Don't go telling me I didn't answer it. You just make a liar out of yourself.
No, you didn't, Mike. You know very well what post I'm talking about and in what thread it resides.
It is a prison for a certain group of fallen angels who were involved in the Genesis 6 incident
Yet Genesis really says nothing about fallen angels does it? Angel is not even in that whole chapter.. is it?
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in which these particular angels infiltrated the human race, and having intercourse with human females, gave rise to the Nephilim.
And of course this is not found in Gen. 6 either... why not?
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2 Peter 2:4 'For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
Tartarus is probably another compartment of Hades.
Ahhhh... I see so it is three compartments now.
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If so, it would be the lowest level of Hades. Tartarus is also referred to in Jude 6, though not by name.
But even though it is "not by name" we are to understand it that way because you say so?
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'And the angels which kept not their fiest estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day'.
You are really putting some verses together and trying to make them back each other up when they may in fact have nothing at all to do with one another... isn't that correct?
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Tartarus is a temporary prison for these angels until God is ready to throw them permanently into the lake of fire.
Do angels go into the lake of fire within Hades, within Tartarus then? This is becoming quite complicated isn't it?
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The poster says that Gen 6, Jude 6, and 2 Peter 2:4 are not found in the Bible. Discerning readers will read the listed passages and relate them to each other.
Now I have become.. the poster? Yet didn't you use my username at the beginning of your post? What has changed?
Gen. 6:1-2 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God(which Mike believes means angels, but really isn't as we can see) saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married (Nothing about intercourse or having demon babies) any of them they chose.
Jude 6 (actually 1:6): 5 and to remind you I intend, you knowing once this, that the Lord, a people out of the land of Egypt having saved, again those who did not believe did destroy; 6messengers (Yep! That is what that word means) also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept, 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.
So looking at this passage I think it is clear that angels doesn't make sense. He is talking about people then angels get punished? then he starts back in talking about people again? (And Yes I used the YLT for the proper translation of agelos in this context.)
2 Pet 2:4 (Same thing as Jude here) 1 And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction, 2 and many shall follow out their destructive ways, because of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of, 3 and in covetousness, with moulded words, of you they shall make merchandise, whose judgment of old is not idle, and their destruction doth not slumber. 4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved, 5 and the old world did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world of the impious having brought, 6 and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah having turned to ashes, with an overthrow did condemn, an example to those about to be impious having set them;
He starts talking about false prophets and then suddenly changes to supernatural creatures with wings then back to people?
Like I said.. none of those verses say what you want them to say about tartarus.
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The demons who are still free to function in the angelic conflict know that their time is coming when they will face their final imprisonment at which time they will be tormented.
And I have to wonder how you know this... did the demons tell you themselves? Is there a demon/angel conflict rules memo that I missed? You say these things as if they are absolute truth when they are really just your own musings and of course that of your beloved teachers.
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I have shown that Hades and the grave are not the same thing. This is easily discerned by reading the entire post and the scriptures given.
Hades is the unseen where people thought the dead resided. You have no proof hades was anything other than a figment of their imagination! IT IS UNSEEN... what we do see is that their body goes into the grave... you have proven that you will dissect the little things to distract from the larger ones and what you can't answer you then refer the reader elsewhere...
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Luke 16:19-31. The story of Lazarus and the rich man was a story told by Jesus to illustrate the reality of Hades.
Now you know why Jesus told the story (Parable) of Lazarus and the rich man? Was that somewhere in the text? I missed that.... It isn't and you are supposing that is why Jesus did it but showcasing hades is not a usual activity for Christ is it? Great moral to the story.... hades is hot and you will want a drink. I am glad it has taught you so much.
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At that time in history, before Jesus was resurrected, both believers and unbelievers went to Hades. Believers went to the Paradise side, and unbelievers went to the 'Torments' side of Hades. Again, one need only look at the passages on the post to see that both believers and unbelievers went to Hades at that time in history.
As opposed to another time in history? None of this can be backed by scripture.
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Poster rejects the Bible as the word of God and considers anything she doens't like as primitive human concepts. Poster particularly rejects the punishment of the unbeliever.
I do I do... this poster emphatically rejects the punishment of the unbeliever simply for his unbelief. And here we go with the ad hominem.
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Poster asks if I have ever heard of figurative language. Since I said in #6 that figurative language was used to describe Hades as having gates, I suppose that I must have heard of figurative language!!!
Then why don't you see your error? Taking literal what is meant to be figurative and spiritual seems to be a big problem with your exegesis.
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Poster fails to compare scripture with scripture and can't put passages together. The passages all distinquish between the resurrection of the believer (the righteous) and the resurrection of the unbeliever (the wicked). Revelation 20:11-15 shows the unbelievers who have been brought up out of Hades and stand before Jesus Christ who then sends them into the lake of fire.
UM... if you (believer or unbeliever) are dead, then you are resurrected... that would indicate immortality wouldn't it? but then don't you need them to be mortal for the pain and also because of this verse?
"When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." 1 Cor 15:54
But then wouldn't you also use this in reference to ONLY believers? Can't really have it both ways.
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Poster wants a connection between Gehenna and the lake of fire. Poster rejects the fact that the people of Jesus' day understood that He used Gehenna to paint a mental picture of the actual lake of fire.
Well actually this is the first time I am hearing this one. You never offered any proof because you cannot provide proof of what someone understood 2000 years ago. You cannot use the verse with Gehenna in it to prove that people like that thought that way. That is like finding a playboy 2000 years from now and supposing everyone had one or approved of it.
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Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who can kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. The discerning reader will realize from this passage that the soul survives the death of the body.
So yes, you are using the passage to prove the passage as well as define the passage.... shame shame. I could use that method and prove anything at all!
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Jesus talks of Gehenna here, and states that man can kill the body but not the soul. Man can throw a person into the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem and kill the body, but being thrown into the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem cannot destroy the soul. Jesus then went on to say that man should fear Him (God) who can destroy both body and show in Gehenna. Jesus was not talking about the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem when He used the word Gehenna, except to relate it to the lake of fire which is where the unbeliever who has been resurrected out of Hades is thrown into. Revelation 20:11-15.
Him actually doesn't have to be God in that instance... but that would be a long conversation... not particularly relevant. I reserve the right to come back to it.
What I find interesting is how much you know about Jesus' thoughts and intentions.. especially when they are found no where in the actual text.
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I said that at the present moment in time, the particular group of fallen angels that were involved in the Genesis 6 incident
Which only exists in the imaginings of some and not in the text.
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in which a certain number of fallen angels (not all fallen angels-SOME fallen angels) infiltrated the human race, and taking human females, produced a hybrid race of half human and half angelic beings known as the Nephilim.
Again not found in the text... see above.
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The fallen angels that were responsible for this are now imprisoned in Tartarus awaiting their final transference into the lake of fire where they will be joined by the fallen angels who are currently free on the earth to engage in the angelic conflict. Poster needs to take an interest.
I showed you where you went wrong.... it is interjection into the text to say any of this is true.
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Poster makes the usual Universalist mistake of thinking that because Jesus came to save the lost, that all will be saved.
Shame on me!
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The Scriptures are quite clear that many will be forever lost.
Show me 1 verse that states the lost remain lost forever.....
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The reason is because God gave man free will to choose for or against God. Many will choose to reject God and therefore be lost.
Again not found in any verse or passage in scripture. He either came to seek and save the lost and didn't save them or he never intended to making himself out to be a liar... which is it?
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Apollumi <> Perish <> Destroy.
You forgot LOST
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It is used by Jesus in Matt 10:24 to describe the condition of the unbeliever in the lake of fire. Eternal torment in utter ruin and uselessness, and hopelessness. That is what awaits those who depart from this life without having accepted God's offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.
Matt 10:24 "A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master.
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I have already shown up above that Gehenna and the lake of fire are one and the same. Readers are free to research it.
They will find NO connection whatsoever.. so yes they should research it!
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Again, poster fails to understand that just because Jesus came to seek the lost, doesn't mean that all will be saved.
Again~He either came to seek and save the lost and didn't save them or he never intended to making himself out to be a liar... which is it?
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Posters mind is muddled by false doctrine of Universalism and sees non existent contradictions.
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Anyone who wishes to research any of what is on my post can easily research it and find out for themselves the validity of what has been said. I have no intention of continuing to indulge this poster who wishes only to debate. Therefore, this is my final comment.
I encourage readers to study the material on the original post,
This is a debate thread, isn't it? Truthfully if you can't defend your position any better than all this hearsay... then I guess your position is planted firmly in the sand.
No, you didn't, Mike. You know very well what post I'm talking about and in what thread it resides.
Of course I know which thread it's on and what post it's on. And I know what verse it's about. It is about Rev. 5:13. You asked me if I undestood it. I gave you the answer. Here is your post.
Mike, we have a little bit of a problem.
Do you see your post on the above verses??? (and I don't know why you spend so much energy on OTHER men's views and commentary------"Bible" teachers are terribly conflicted about much. They can't agree on ANYTHING. We were GIVEN the Holy Spirit to bring us into truth)
You told me previously, in a post long, long ago that God must have at SOME TIME in the past tried to reconcile the angels that have fallen......Did you not??????
So, when these "demons" (that is not the correct name for them) were asking not to be thrown back into the "dark" wherever that is, this was BEFORE Christ DIED. YES?
SO!
HOW would the following verses be RECONCILED with your version of a PAST attempt (before the cross) reconciliation????
"And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether things in earth, or things in heaven " (Col. 1:20).
"By Him to reconcile principalities and powers in heaven and on earth" (Col. 1:16, 20)
OR~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him and for Him: and, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven "
Do you understand this verse, now?????
Revelation 5:13. Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
You've been answered. Here. On this thread. Post #28.
Well, you're acting a bit strange, Mike. Why couldn't you just answer in the thread that it was posted in? Now the above post looks like yours and I can't reply properly.
Anyhoo.
You still have not answered my questions. This isn't just about Revelation 5:13.
Last edited by herefornow; 06-21-2010 at 05:10 AM..
2.) Sheol/Hades It is known as Sheol in the Hebrew, and Hades in the Greek. Sheol is not the grave. The King James translators rendered Sheol/hades as the grave, but it is not.
they also rendered it hell in 31 instances, I agree with you, both hell and grave are mistranslations, it is the realm of dead souls as I understand it
Sheol is a place of unconsciousness - not of suffering, according to the bible
Ecclesiastes 9:10, Darby
Whatever thy hand findeth to do, do with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest.
many Psalms support that view, also the righteous went to Sheol/Hades, e.g. David (Acts 2:24-31)
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Tartarus is reserved for those aforementioned angels. There are no human beings in Tartarus.
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Tartarus is a temporary prison for these angels
no disagreement here
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The eternal hell is 'Gehenna' or 'Tophet' or 'the lake of fire.' Gehenna was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where children had once been offered up to Molech, bodies were dumped and burned there and the fires never went out. Jesus used the term 'Gehenna' to illustrate to horrors of the lake of fire in a way which his audience would understand.
this is mereley your personnal opinion, there is no scriptural support for the claim that by Gehenna a place of everlasting suffering is meant - it is in itself more likely an idiom for annihilation rather than conscious suffering; Matthew 25 does not speak about Gehenna; further the valley of Hinnom was no lake, therefore it is invalid in my opinion to equate Gehenna with the lake of fire.
The word destroy is Apollumi and does not mean cessation of existence, but rather it carries the meaning of utter ruination and eternal uselessness. It is used by Jesus in Matt 10:24 to describe the condition of the unbeliever in the lake of fire.
It's Matthew 10:28, apollumi has many meanings, your definition is none of it
apollumi does NOT mean a hopeless doom in New Testament usage as I maybe will show later
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Tartarus is also referred to in Jude 6, though not by name. 'And the angels which kept not their fiest estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day'. Tartarus is a temporary prison for these angels until God is ready to throw them permanently into the lake of fire.
it is interesting that you agree it as an temporary prison, though it says "everlasting", "everlasting" obviously does NOT mean "endless" here, as it does NOT in many other instances
As even the casual reader will notice, when the truth is presented, it brings out into the open, those who oppose it. This is the way of things in the devil's world.
they also rendered it hell in 31 instances, I agree with you, both hell and grave are mistranslations, it is the realm of dead souls as I understand it
Sheol is a place of unconsciousness - not of suffering, according to the bible
Ecclesiastes 9:10, Darby
Whatever thy hand findeth to do, do with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest.
many Psalms support that view, also the righteous went to Sheol/Hades, e.g. David (Acts 2:24-31)
Sheol is not a place of unconsciousness. The book of Ecclesiastes portrays Solomon at a time in his life when he had turned away from God. He never lost his salvation, but he was thinking in terms of human viewpoint. He had been a spiritually mature believer but had retreated from that, and as a result, he lived and thought just as an unbeliever would. Ecclesiastes records the erroneous thoughts of Solomon. What Solomon said in Ecc. 9:10 was not true. God allowed the human viewpoint thinking of Solomon to be recorded in the interest of truth. For the purpose of showing what happens to the thinking of a believer who turns away from God.
With regard to Ecclesiastes 9:10, C.I. Scofield wrote...
1(9:10) This statement is no more a divine revelation concerning the state of the dead than any other conclusion of ''the preacher'' (1:1). No one would quote 9:2 as a divine revelation. These reasonings of man apart from divine revelation are set down by inspiration just as the words of Satan (Gen. 3:4; Job 2:4-5; etc,) are so recorded. But that life and consciousness continue between death and resurrection is directly affirmed in Scripture (Isa. 14:9-11; Mt. 22:32; Mk.9:43-48; Lk. 16:19-31; 2 Cor.5:6-8; Phil.1:21-23; Rev. 6:9-11).
[New Scofield Reference Edition, footnote for Ecc. 9:10, p. 702]
No Scripture supports the view of an unconscious soul, or soul sleep. That belief is heretical.
Acts 2:24-31 certainly doesn't. The passage is about Jesus. In verse 27, it says, 'BECAUSE THOU WILT NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES,. Jesus' body was in the tomb. His soul was in the Paradise side of Hades. Refer back to the verses in the Scofied notes, above regarding the consciousness of the soul after death.
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this is mereley your personnal opinion, there is no scriptural support for the claim that by Gehenna a place of everlasting suffering is meant - it is in itself more likely an idiom for annihilation rather than conscious suffering; Matthew 25 does not speak about Gehenna; further the valley of Hinnom was no lake, therefore it is invalid in my opinion to equate Gehenna with the lake of fire.
First, Annihilation is shown to be a heresy by many passages such as Rev. 14:10-11; 20:10 and many of the passages listed in the original post.
The soul is shown to be conscious in Hades and in the lake of fire.
Matthew 25:41 doesn't use the 'word' Gehenna. It is however talking about Gehenna-the lake of fire. Matthew 25:41 refers to the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. In Rev 20:10, Satan is thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone. In Rev. 20:15, everyone whose name is not found in the book of life is thrown into the lake of fire. That goes back to Matt 25:41,46 where the accursed ones are ordered into the eternal fire. So from those passages, it is clear that both unbelieving humanity and fallen angels end up in the lake of fire. And from passages such as Rev 14:10-11 and Rev 20:10, those who there are shown to be clearly conscious.
The place called the lake of fire has other descriptive names. The eternal fire (Matt 25:41), The furnace of fire (Matt 13:49, 50, 13:40-43), Eternal punishment (Matt 25:46), Eternal Destruction (2 Thess 1:8-9), The Lake of fire (Rev 20:15), Gehenna, the unquenchable fire (Mk 9:43), Gehenna, where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED (Mk 9:45,46,48).
In Mark 9:45,46,48, Jesus referred back to Isaiah 66:24 which says, 'Then they shall go forth and look On the corpses of men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched; And they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind.' In describing the lake of fire, Jesus used langauge that His audience understood. His use of the terms unquenchable fire, and their worm shall not die is taken directly from Isaiah 66:24.
Gehenna is the place where the fire is not quenched. The place of unquenchable fire. The place where their worm does not die. This is language used by Christ taken from Isa 66:24 to describe the place of future eternal punishment.
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People's New Testament
9:48 Worm dieth not... fire is not quenched. An expression borrowed from Isa 66:24, and probably in current use among the Jews of our Savior's time, as applied to the state of future retribution.
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Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
48. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched-See on [1468]Mt 5:30; The "unquenchablesness" of this fire has already been brought before us (see on [1469]Mt 3:12); and the awfully vivid idea of an undying worm, everlastingly consuming an unconsumable body, is taken from the closing words of the evangelical prophet (Isa 66:24), which seem to have furnished the later Jewish Church with its current phraseology on the subject of future punishment (see Lightfoot).
apollumi does NOT mean a hopeless doom in New Testament usage as I maybe will show later
Yes. It does. I said that Apollumi means to destroy, not in the sense of cessation of existance, but as in utter ruin, to be rendered eternally useless.
The Blueletterbible lexicon agrees.
1) to destroy
a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
b) render useless
c) to kill
d) to declare that one must be put to death
e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
it is interesting that you agree it as an temporary prison, though it says "everlasting", "everlasting" obviously does NOT mean "endless" here, as it does NOT in many other instances
Tartarus most likely is a part of Hades which will be thrown into the lake of fire as per Revelation 20:14. The punishment of the fallen angels currently imprisoned in Tartarus is everlasting. They are simply transferred to Gehenna from Tartarus, which itself will be cast into the lake of fire. The 'chains of everlasting darkness' refer to the means by which the fallen angels who are there, are kept imprisoned there. And not all fallen angels are imprisoned there. Only the ones who were involved in the Genesis 6 incident. Whether in Tartarus or in Gehenna, the angels are kept in chains of everlasting darkness.Their punishment continues throughout eternity future, as does the punishment of the unbeliever.
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