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To answer your question of Romans 8...I believe searching the Bible further may help us understand.....Rev 21:7, Luke 20:36 and Philippians 1:20 comes to mind. But to expand solely on Romans 8:20, it appears that Paul is conveying that creation has a real will and consciousness. It groans...I think the creation, as I have stated in my previous post, represents God's people, and by the breath of life they once received in Adam, once again receives in Christ when they take their oath of confession. As you can see from the referrences I gave above, it is of my opinion that Paul is reaching back to Genesis 3, speaking about the fall of Adam and Eve, the point in history where God's curse entered His covenant world because of disobedience. About yor second question, do you not believe that Christ is another administration of the same Lord? I believe you answered your third question. Thanks so much for talking with me. God bless.
JJ I agree Paul was speaking about this taking place AFTER mans disobedience.
Thank you for your thought out reply to my post. I believe everything you have said, but what I am having trouble with your opening sentence, as Paul, just as you used Romans 5 to leverage your view, seems to disagree with you at the opening sentence as well....Verse 1 says....Therefore being justified by faith...so I must accept that is what it takes, to have the remainder of Paul's message to us in Romans 5, is founded on faith. Would you not agree?
No, not really. Here is why. In Rom 5:1 the text reads:
Rom 5:1 Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
We are declared righteous by Christ's work, not our faith. Here is what Paul told us in the proceeding verse:
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.
We are declared righteous in the resurrection of Christ, not by our faith. Then (and only then, and this is an important distinction) by faith we have peace toward God. But the peace toward God was accomplished not by faith but rather by Christ for us on the cross. Faith brings this knowledge to us. There is a sense in which faith is said to save. But that faith is always the faith of Christ, not the sinners. Paul states this early on:
Rom 3:22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,
Rom 3:23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--
Rom 3:24 being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Quote:
Also...what about Paul's message later on, in the same breath in chapter 10, where he makes it clear to us readers that confession in Christ...secures salvation? Would not these two statements, annul what you have said here, where not only I and others have read, but the thousands, if not millions of people that lurk this site. We must be careful with what we say and teach, because people believe the words of man, more so than God, especially in these times, and I believe that your message, that it does not require faith to have salvation, appears to be in contrast with what Christ and Paul taught. My opnions of course, but that in my mind, is not a message that is supposed to be complicated, but a message, that even a 4 yeard old child could understand...is not that how we are supposed to love Him...like a child? Our approach must be childike, which includes our understanding of His message. Believe in Him, inherit salvation.
For me, the plainest sense is the best sense.
Thanks again for conversing with me.
Good points that have answers. Ive got some errands to run today so I'll be back later, OK?
No, not really. Here is why. In Rom 5:1 the text reads:
Rom 5:1 Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
We are declared righteous by Christ's work, not our faith. Here is what Paul told us in the proceeding verse:
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.
We are declared righteous in the resurrection of Christ, not by our faith. Then (and only then, and this is an important distinction) by faith we have peace toward God. But the peace toward God was accomplished not by faith but rather by Christ for us on the cross. Faith brings this knowledge to us. There is a sense in which faith is said to save. But that faith is always the faith of Christ, not the sinners. Paul states this early on:
Rom 3:22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,
Rom 3:23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--
Rom 3:24 being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Good points that have answers. Ive got some errands to run today so I'll be back later, OK?
Hello AlabamaStorm,
Thank you for getting back to me so soon. I would like to delve a little deeeper on your analysis of Romans 4.
How do you approach verse 24 of Romans 4 in light of this interpretation that you have accepted?
But for us also, towhom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
And of verse 26, 27 and 28 in chapter 3?
To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
It seems at least to me, that Paul is again sending us the message that from our belief and faith in Him, we are imputed with righteousness.
Also...what about Paul's message later on, in the same breath in chapter 10, where he makes it clear to us readers that confession in Christ...secures salvation? Would not these two statements, annul what you have said here, where not only I and others have read, but the thousands, if not millions of people that lurk this site. We must be careful with what we say and teach, because people believe the words of man, more so than God, especially in these times, and I believe that your message, that it does not require faith to have salvation, appears to be in contrast with what Christ and Paul taught.
I believe the scriptures teach that a sinner is justified by Christ alone. There is nothing the sinner does, thinks, believes or accomplishes that adds to Christ's work in "securing" our salvation. Jesus alone justifies the sinner before God. And He did so when we were spiritually dead, without hope and without faith.
Here is an excellent article that I believe is true to the biblical teaching of our Justification before God. Although written from a reformed Calvinistic position (I'm UR not limited atonement though ), it's emphasis on Christ alone being the sole cause of our justification before God is clear. Here it is:
Concerning the righteousness of Christ being imputed to the sinner through faith, yes, I agree with you. However, the imputation of righteousness, and our declaration of righteousness (Justification) are two different issues. Paul tells us here how the two issues are juxtaposed:
Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness:
The best example I can give is the one Paul used. Abraham was imputed with righteousness when he believed the promises of God. However, the promises of God did not find their truth in Abraham, but rather God who proclaimed it. And so it is with our Justification. Do you see the difference here? IOW, the declaration of righteousness that was accomplished by Christ's work (the Gospel message) IS the promise. Believing the promise (the Gospel message) results in the declaration being reckoned to our account. But the actual Justification (being declared righteous) nevertheless finds it's cause in Christ alone. It is that work of Christ that actually saves.
I recall discussing this with another poster sometime back. I think this was it, or something similar to it:
Thank you for getting back to me so soon. I would like to delve a little deeeper on your analysis of Romans 4.
How do you approach verse 24 of Romans 4 in light of this interpretation that you have accepted?
But for us also, towhom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
And of verse 26, 27 and 28 in chapter 3?
To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
It seems at least to me, that Paul is again sending us the message that from our belief and faith in Him, we are imputed with righteousness.
Thanks again.
I'm not sure I would agree with you. It seems that you might have assumed a few things here that I don't. Here are my thoughts:
1. I think you've assumed that the word Justified means the same as being reckoned or imputed with righteousness. The two are really different terms that mean different things and occur at different times and phases of our salvation.
2. I think you've also assumed that the faith being spoken of is man's. I would disagree with that assumption. The faith that Justifies us is Christ's faith, or perhaps His faithfulness (see the previous verses, Rom 3:22-24, that lead to the conclusion Paul makes).
I believe the scriptures teach that a sinner is justified by Christ alone. There is nothing the sinner does, thinks, believes or accomplishes that adds to Christ's work in "securing" our salvation. Jesus alone justifies the sinner before God. And He did so when we were spiritually dead, without hope and without faith.
Here is an excellent article that I believe is true to the biblical teaching of our Justification before God. Although written from a reformed Calvinistic position (I'm UR not limited atonement though ), it's emphasis on Christ alone being the sole cause of our justification before God is clear. Here it is:
Concerning the righteousness of Christ being imputed to the sinner through faith, yes, I agree with you. However, the imputation of righteousness, and our declaration of righteousness (Justification) are two different issues. Paul tells us here how the two issues are juxtaposed:
Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness:
The best example I can give is the one Paul used. Abraham was imputed with righteousness when he believed the promises of God. However, the promises of God did not find their truth in Abraham, but rather God who proclaimed it. And so it is with our Justification. Do you see the difference here? IOW, the declaration of righteousness that was accomplished by Christ's work (the Gospel message) IS the promise. Believing the promise (the Gospel message) results in the declaration being reckoned to our account. But the actual Justification (being declared righteous) nevertheless finds it's cause in Christ alone. It is that work of Christ that actually saves.
I recall discussing this with another poster sometime back. I think this was it, or something similar to it:
Anyway, just my own personal thoughts. I enjoy the discussion
Thank you, AlabamaStorm. I've pretty much got the eons and hell part of UR figured out. My only hang-up is this "justified by faith" part. I can't seem to find much on it within the UR community.
Thank you, AlabamaStorm. I've pretty much got the eons and hell part of UR figured out. My only hang-up is this "justified by faith" part. I can't seem to find much on it within the UR community.
James 1:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Do these scriptures conflict with one another? Or are they speaking of two aspects of faith.
First it should be pointed out that Paul in Romans 4 is speaking of faith in the birth of Isaac (this is seen in verses 18-22) and James is speaking of the sacrifice of Isaac.
Two different aspects of faith.
Abraham did nothing but believe in Isaacs birth, but once Isaac/Christ is birthed in us He produces works of faith. It is these works of faith James is speaking of and this can be seen in verse 22 “Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” /complete
If Abraham never offered up Isaac (which is works) then his faith would never have come to completion.
We can see these same works of faith also mentioned by both Jesus and Paul.
John 8:39
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.( Are they works of faith or works of the law)
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works,(these would be works of the law) least any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (works of faith)
2 Thessalonians 1:11
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
Hebrews 11:7
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark (works) to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Now think on this; if Noah had not built the boat (which was a work of faith, the same works of faith James is speaking on) then he and his house would have drowned with the rest of mankind.
Adds another layer to “faith without works is dead” don’t it.
I'm not sure I would agree with you. It seems that you might have assumed a few things here that I don't. Here are my thoughts:
1. I think you've assumed that the word Justified means the same as being reckoned or imputed with righteousness. The two are really different terms that mean different things and occur at different times and phases of our salvation.
2. I think you've also assumed that the faith being spoken of is man's. I would disagree with that assumption. The faith that Justifies us is Christ's faith, or perhaps His faithfulness (see the previous verses, Rom 3:22-24, that lead to the conclusion Paul makes).
Hello AlabamaStorm,
Thank you again for conversing with me on this subject. My reasoning involving "justification" and "imputation of righteousness" are not to be confused as being the same things as you said I might be doing. They are different terms and of my opinion, are uniquely related though. I see you referred to Verses 22-24, which not only deal with Christ, but the faith of Christ unto us...as Paul says... by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe...Our Faith of Him is how I understand this. The subject, to me, never changes, that what is imputed, the righteousness of Christ, is given to us only through the act of faith, that which is given to us, and them of past, witnessed by the law and the prophets, apart from the law. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Heb 10:14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.1 Cor 6:11but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.Heb 10:26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.
Paul seems to always bring the message full circle as to how one can attain this free gift that He gave each and every one of us. It is by faith in Him, and not one person on this earth, at least how I understand the messages of the Bible, is justified or imputed with righteousness unless the individual acts on God's actions of drawing that person near to Him. God draws, man accepts. God's brings, man surrenders. Thanks again for the good conversation. I apologize if I don't get back as soon as I would like to, but I can assure you I will. I have noticed though, this forum is probably one of the most active forums I have been to other than a couple out there. This is truly a forum "hub" so to speak, for the world, and as I always remind myself, we must be careful what we say, and how we say it to each other, if we are to get attract anyone else into the kingdom. To even imgaine how many people come to this particular site every year is staggering, and it is especially important that we follow the one of the two true commandments that our Lord Christ instructed us, no matter what view or doctrine we may hold, whether it be in the faith of Christianity, or any other religion we have, is to love. It is our job as Christians to not promote the faith, but to attract one to it. God bless you. I hope I can get back to you before tomorrow, God willing, but I can't guarantee you. Until then, have a blessed day.
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Ive got some errands to run today so I'll be back later, OK?
Two different aspects of faith.
