Are denominations in keeping with god’s will? (Book of Mormon, women, believer)

[Jazzymom]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

The Jews having rejected Jesus as the promised messiah, which the OT prophets and the Jewish religious leaders understood to be God, they don't recognize the NT. The Jewish faith is still waiting for the Messiah.

If you mean the "Jewish Hebrew Bible" as only the OT, then no we don't worship the same God.For as you know Jesus was charged with blasphemy....

Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? Micah 7:18
"Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" Mark 2:7

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"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." John 10:33

Christians has always believed that Jesus is the promised Messiah therefore believing that the Messiah was God.
The Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah therefore they don't believe in God, nor the Muslims, JW's, LDS or many other so called "Christian denominations".

It is impossible to have this utopia when the core central teaching of Christianity is the Incarnation, Trinity, and Jesus' Resurrection "

Well I guess you better remove the Old Testament. Didn't you know it really is the Hebrew Bible you took from us?

I worship the G-d in the Bible not the man Jesus of the New Testament.

[Robert M Prince]

Originally Posted by Jason28

I beg to differ. Through out various old testament passages God does force himself on others and then threatens them via eternal torment in hell if people worship false idols.

---- I've personally made my choice. I choose to believe in something different that hasn't been touched by men.

Jason,
I believe that Christ is the Son of God and that we cannot go to the Father except through Jesus; that God is perfect in His judgments; and that the Bible is the word of God. You deny all of these statements, so what can we discuss with any hope of getting some agreement?
Bob

Originally Posted by Katzpur

When Bob started this thread, I think he was hoping that with a little effort, we Christians could learn to find some common ground and experience the kind of unity Christ wanted us to know. He told His disciples that the way people would be able to know that they were His followers was that they would have "love one to another." Would our interaction here on this forum lead someone to conclude that we are followers of Christ or not? We may never see eye to eye on every conceivable doctrine, but there is not one person here who does not deserve to be treated with respect and civility.

Katzpur,
I agree that we should all show respect and civility.

FYI - I previously posted a comment on another thread that illustrates the development of some of my thoughts about denominational differences:
"For some time, I felt there may be some contradiction between the passage in Ephesians 2 where we are told "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; Not of works, kest any man should boast," and the clear admonition of our Saviour in John 15 that, "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." I knew that scripture rightly understood does not contradict other scripture.
Then I considered what Jesus said in Luke 17:10, "When ye shall have done all things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which was our dutyt to do." It became clear to me that it is humanly impossible to keep the commandments in our natural power. We have to be given the gift of the Holy Ghost (which Peter said God gives to them that obey Him) to be able to keep His commandments. Since it is not our efforts that keep the commandments, but the Holy Spirit working through us, then we have nothing of which we can boast. Incidentally, after the statement of Eph.2:9 about us having no works of which we can boast, the immedioate next verse says, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." So it is His Spirit that makes it possible for us to do the good works which we are commanded to do.

Best wishes in your search for truth,
Bob

[Verna Perry]

Originally Posted by Robert M Prince

"...FYI - I previously posted a comment on another thread that illustrates the development of some of my thoughts about denominational differences:
"For some time, I felt there may be some contradiction between the passage in Ephesians 2 where we are told "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; Not of works, kest any man should boast," and the clear admonition of our Saviour in John 15 that, "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." I knew that scripture rightly understood does not contradict other scripture.
Then I considered what Jesus said in Luke 17:10, "When ye shall have done all things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which was our dutyt to do." It became clear to me that it is humanly impossible to keep the commandments in our natural power. We have to be given the gift of the Holy Ghost (which Peter said God gives to them that obey Him) to be able to keep His commandments. Since it is not our efforts that keep the commandments, but the Holy Spirit working through us, then we have nothing of which we can boast. Incidentally, after the statement of Eph.2:9 about us having no works of which we can boast, the immedioate next verse says, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." So it is His Spirit that makes it possible for us to do the good works which we are commanded to do.

Best wishes in your search for truth,
Bob

So! Bob!...am I to take away from this that you do believe that if one were to be truly changed and born again in the Spirit of Christ, one would be showing the fruit of it by keeping the Ten Commandments of God...including the fourth one...keeping the Sabbath holy?....or no..?

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

When Bob started this thread, I think he was hoping that with a little effort, we Christians could learn to find some common ground and experience the kind of unity Christ wanted us to know. He told His disciples that the way people would be able to know that they were His followers was that they would have "love one to another." Would our interaction here on this forum lead someone to conclude that we are followers of Christ or not? We may never see eye to eye on every conceivable doctrine, but there is not one person here who does not deserve to be treated with respect and civility.

And respect goes both ways Katzpur. It was by your own admission that the same words have different meanings and are applied understood differently per your example LDS, Catholic and Baptist.

"Baptism" and "to be baptized" is another very good example. Same word(s) ... but each three religions in your example have totally different meanings and application to them.

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This is where the respect comes in on your part Katzpur.

It is very possible that a Catholic or Baptist knew that prior to your disclosure. It would be a tad bit arrogant for a Baptist to say that unless you're Baptist you aren't quailified to make that discernment. And you know as well as anybody how prolific the LDS is in printed material. I have enough respect for you to believe that you could pick up printed material from a Baptist and come away with the Baptist's meaning of words \ phrases on your own. If not, then it's safe to say that they were trying to hide\confuse something (intentions not withstanding) from the avg person.

Which begs the question:

Why should any church body not want to have their meanings of words \ phrases made clear enough so as the avg person can pick it up , read it and understand that body's position? ....Can you think of any reason why ?

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However...I do understand and respect your call for civility, and I shall try

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

And respect goes both ways Katzpur.

In all the time I have been posting on this forum, twin.spin, I have never made light of your beliefs, attempted to interpret them for you, or said that because you believe differently from me, you have no right to call yourself a Christian. I have stated, for example, that I do not believe the doctrine of the Trinity, but I have not been critical of those who do. I have not inserted negative references to any denomination in any of my posts, and I have never suggested that God will not save people who worship Him differently than I do.

It was by your own admission that the same words have different meanings and are applied understood differently per your example LDS, Catholic and Baptist.

Yes, I did, and it was with the intention of trying to help people of varying denominations to recognize this and reach out to one another. Instead, you added it to your list of "official LDS quotes" so that you could use it to further denigrade my beliefs.

"Baptism" and "to be baptized" is another very good example. Same word(s) ... but each three religions in your example have totally different meanings and application to them.

I wouldn't say the meanings are "totally different," but there are some subtle differences in our usage. I'm glad you are finally able to recognize that, because that is all I was ever saying.

This is where the respect comes in on your part Katzpur.

And how exactly have I been disrespectful to you? (If anybody else thinks I've been disrespectful to them at any time, I hope you will DM me with the specifics.)

Why should any church body not want to have their meanings of words \ phrases made clear enough so as the avg person can pick it up , read it and understand that body's position? ....Can you think of any reason why ?

I don't believe any Church (mine included) has any intention to confuse or deceive people of other faiths. On the contrary, I believe that the Latter-day Saints, at least, want very much for people to understand what we mean when we use certain words. As a matter of fact, here is an excellent talk given by an LDS Apostle, Dallin H. Oaks. It's called Have You Been Saved? It deals with the very issue we're discussing, and the very word you and I both used as an example: "Salvation." The whole point of his talk was to build bridges so that LDS Christians, Catholic Christians, Protestant Christians and non-denominational Christians could better understand one another and communicate with each other.

However...I do understand and respect your call for civility, and I shall try

That would be really, really nice.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Yes, I did, and it was with the intention of trying to help people of varying denominations to recognize this and reach out to one another. Instead, you added it to your list of "official LDS quotes" so that you could use it to further denigrade my beliefs..

For you to automatically equate as list of "official LDS quotes" as to "further denigrade my beliefs" is not would I say is putting the best construction on everything.

Ever did a diary or shopping list.

Honestly I have found that it's not a case of "a further denigrade my beliefs" more than a case of "a further denigrade of my confidence in my defensive go to's that would cause me to truthfully examine the accuracy of my beliefs" that is behind it.

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I don't believe any Church (mine included) has any intention to confuse or deceive people of other faiths. On the contrary, I believe that the Latter-day Saints, at least, want very much for people to understand what we mean when we use certain words. As a matter of fact, here is an excellent talk given by an LDS Apostle, Dallin H. Oaks. It's called Have You Been Saved? It deals with the very issue we're discussing, and the very word you and I both used as an example: "Salvation." The whole point of his talk was to build bridges so that LDS Christians, Catholic Christians, Protestant Christians and non-denominational Christians could better understand one another and communicate with each other.

I don't contribute the failure to understand \ communicate simply because of a matter of percieved "denigrade of beliefs".

God gives the best answer:

1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

What are the foolish things of God:

1 Corinthians 1:23 KJV
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

John 10:33 KJV
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 6:29 kJV
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


the core central teaching of Christianity the Incarnation, Trinity, and Jesus' Resurrection

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And yes I do recall quoting scripture of a "creed" spoken .... but you refused to believe it.

As the saying goes:
Those who don't believe, there is no proof that satisfies ..
Those who believe........ proof isn't necessary.

[Robert M Prince]

Originally Posted by Verna Perry

So! Bob!...am I to take away from this that you do believe that if one were to be truly changed and born again in the Spirit of Christ, one would be showing the fruit of it by keeping the Ten Commandments of God...including the fourth one...keeping the Sabbath holy?....or no..?

Vera, you should know from a previous post, that I believe a Christian with the guidance of the Holy Spirit is to keep every day holy, not just the Sabbath.
Bob

[Verna Perry]

Originally Posted by Robert M Prince

Vera, you should know from a previous post, that I believe a Christian with the guidance of the Holy Spirit is to keep every day holy, not just the Sabbath.
Bob

It's truly frustrating Bob...you and a few others who post such eloquent replies and responses...proving through those precious Words of God, that He commands us to keep His commandments....yet...YET!!!...you don't believe them! YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THE VERY SCRIPTURE YOU QUOTE!!! YOU DO NOT! YOU DO NOT! YOU DO NOT! You quote it out of one side of your mouths...and you reject it out of the other sides of your mouths!, and it is such hypocracy!...blantent hypocracy!

THE COMMANDMENTS THAT WE ARE TO KEEP ARE THE TEN COMMANDMENTS...IF! WE LOVE HIM!...AND THE FOURTH ONE COMMANDS US TO REMEMBER! THE SABBATH DAY>>>TO KEEP IT HOLY UNTO GOD!....WHAT PART OF THAT DO YOU ALL NOT UNDERSTAND...?!

...Incredible...simply incredible. If you don't believe what Scripture teaches, then STOP! quoting it as if you did!!! You want it both ways!...You cannot have it both ways!..It's labeled "lukewarm!"

Your post, #83, coming from you, means nothing!...absolutely nothing!

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

For you to automatically equate as list of "official LDS quotes" as to "further denigrade my beliefs" is not would I say is putting the best construction on everything.

Honestly I have found that it's not a case of "a further denigrade my beliefs" more than a case of "a further denigrade of my confidence in my defensive go to's that would cause me to truthfully examine the accuracy of my beliefs" that is behind it.

Some things just never change.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

Stressing about perfection sure can come with some odd conclusions....

Thinking you understand someone else's beliefs when you really don't almost always results in odd and inaccurate conclusions.