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I've been studying ET, Annihilationism, and UR for awhile now and lately have been pondering in depth Matthew 7:21-23
This one verse convinces me beyond a shadow of a doubt that universal Redemption is NOT a valid belief. This one verse, being the EXACT words of our Lord, Jesus overrides anything UR'ers can use from Paul and/or any other author of the Bible outside the four Gospels, because Jesus' words take precedent over anything a mortal man can say.
Notice that Jesus makes plain His verdict is final. There is no conditional circumstances that reverses its decree---nothing like, "Depart from Me until you serve a term in the Lake of Fire and learn My truths--only then will you be admitted into heaven."
Note the plain language, "Not everyone will enter heaven." And "I never knew you. Depart." Does it say, "Depart, until.... "? Or "Depart for an aionion and then you will be admitted." or any similar pronouncements? I see nothing in Jesus' words that even remotely suggests there are conditions to be met and then His decision will be reversed. In such a weighty declaration as this, if there were any, Jesus certainly wouldn't have hesitated to add them to let His listeners know that there was a way to escape such a devastating condemnation.
No, my friends, Jesus' decision is final. Once you are refused entrance into heaven it is for all eternity. No second chances as Universalists claim.
But eternal torment is also not an option because of the use of words like "perish", "destroyed" "die" "destruction", etc. These words leave no doubt that the soul, which is not immortal, is destroyed by God once final judgement is passed by Jesus or God at the end time. This leaves only annihilation as the logical punishment for souls that die in their sin.
Thrill, I am also rejoiced over your seeking and FINDING the Truth. Thank the Spirit for leading you into this.
But, like Verna said, other Truths are going to open up to you in a huge way, if you can lay down the carnality and her desires, and wholly seek Him. There is a whole new world(kosmos) waiting to be explored, and the Spirit is desiring to lead you into it.
If more people would open up and let Him in, this world(kosmos) would become a wonderful place in which to live, as the Light that shines forth cannot be put out!
Correct me if I'm wrong--- you seem to sound quite "joyful" that someone else believes in annihiliation, just like you do...
???? Can you explain?
Blessings,
Brian
...nope Brian!...no correction needed!...I Am beyond!!! joyful that another soul...one more!!!!!! has found God's truth!!!...even the angels are rejoicing in heaven at this moment for thrillobyte!!!...and I rejoice with them, for him!!!
[quote=sophialee]If she believes it to be the truth, why wouldn't she be glad if she thought someone else had also found the truth?
It doesn't mean she's rejoicing in Annihilation per se, but in someone discovering the truth. Wouldn't you be all happy if someone decided UR was the truth? Well it's no different.[/quote]
...Amen sophialee!...You are spot on!
[quote=HalfNelson]Should someone always be joyful of a person finding truth?
In the end it is not God that annihilates, the lost, it is their sin and guilt that crushes the life out of them.[/quote]
...and Amen to you too HalfNelson...my brother in Christ Jesus!!!...
I just want to give you a picture of how I see this as a believer in UR. I posted this in another thread a while back.
If you want to get specific, Matt 7:21-23 is talking about reigning with Christ. From Young's Literal:
Matt 7:21 `Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?
23 and then I will acknowledge to them, that -- I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness.
I fully believe some (many) will not be reigning with Christ in His Kingdom.
I fully believe some blaspheme the Holy Spirit and they are not pardoned for the eon (that is the correct translation). But after that they will be forgiven.
I fully believe some do not share in the inheritance - that is they will not be Kings and Priests and Judges reigning with Christ.
I fully believe that some do not have eonian life now and God's wrath remains on them.
But none of this means that some people MUST be burning in hell forever, nor does it mean that some people MUST be annihilated.
It is about understanding what eonian life is and what the purpose for reigning in Christ's Kingdom is.
Christ's Kingdom starts small like a tiny mustard seed, but grows into a giant tree so that all the birds can come and rest.
Christ's Kingdom is like a tiny piece of yeast that eventually works through ALL the dough.
Not everyone is called to reign in Christ's Kingdom. Only the few will reign with Christ.
No murderers or adulterers or others will enter Christ's Kingdom. They will all be converted first.
See, the whole purpose for the reign of Christ is to bring everyone else into God's fold. Each in their own order, so ultimately God will be all in all.
Why do you think God's elect are called to be PRIESTS and MINISTERS? Who are they going to be preaching and ministering too? They don't need to preach and minister themselves, they already follow Christ! No. They will be instrumental in bringing EVERYONE ELSE to Christ.
Read this.
Eph 1:
9 God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure. 10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth. 11 Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.
This is from the NLT. Read all of Ephesians 1. But this section explains what is happening. This is the mystery of God's plan. He is bringing everything together under the authority of Christ. But there is an inheritance - not everyone receives it - only those who have been chosen. The inheritance is to help bring everyone together under Christ! The inheritance is to be a King, Judge, Priest, and Minister. To minister to all the nations - to bring them under Christ! It will happen because every knee will bow and every tongue swear allegiance in the end. There will be great joy among all families. That is the inheritance of Abraham promised way back in Genesis:
Gen 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
All the families of the earth will be blessed when they are finally brought under the authority of Christ. This is the good news my friend. But few understand it because it is a mystery - even though it is spelled out right there in Ephesians 1.
If she believes it to be the truth, why wouldn't she be glad if she thought someone else had also found the truth?
It doesn't mean she's rejoicing in Annihilation per se, but in someone discovering the truth. Wouldn't you be all happy if someone decided UR was the truth? Well it's no different.
Sophialee,
yes, with one small difference: Verna rejoices in the "truth" of people being annihiliated. I rejoice in mankind being saved, and God's victory in saving the man that He created in His image. -And THAT is cause to rejoice, my friend!!
[quote=Verna Perry;16658428]...nope Brian!...no correction needed!...I Am beyond!!! joyful that another soul...one more!!!!!! has found God's truth!!!...even the angels are rejoicing in heaven at this moment for thrillobyte!!!...and I rejoice with them, for him!!!
[quote=sophialee]If she believes it to be the truth, why wouldn't she be glad if she thought someone else had also found the truth?
It doesn't mean she's rejoicing in Annihilation per se, but in someone discovering the truth. Wouldn't you be all happy if someone decided UR was the truth? Well it's no different.[/quote]
...Amen sophialee!...You are spot on!
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson
Should someone always be joyful of a person finding truth?
In the end it is not God that annihilates, the lost, it is their sin and guilt that crushes the life out of them.[/quote]
...and Amen to you too HalfNelson...my brother in Christ Jesus!!!...
...WOO-HOO!!!...\o/
Well, I'm glad that believing in annihiliation gives you such joy!
Stay well...
yes, with one small difference: Verna rejoices in the "truth" of people being annihiliated. I rejoice in mankind being saved, and God's victory in saving the man that He created in His image. -And THAT is cause to rejoice, my friend!!
Blessings!
Brian
Ps. what is the fluffy puppy club?
Well truth is truth and apparently people have different versions of what truth is. I don't subscribe to UR or Annihilation (uh oh bet you can guess which one I believe in. ), but I can understand people being happy when they think someone else has discovered truth.
Fluffy puppy club is a joke from the Charlotte board. In a thread about the economy someone came in absolutely ranting that all the people on the Charlotte board either subscribed to the Doom and Gloom mentality or belonged to The Fluffy Puppy Club. I thought it was funny.
Luke 13
18 Then Jesus asked, "What is the kingdom of God like? What shall I compare it to?
19 It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his garden. It grew and became a tree, and the birds of the air perched in its branches."
20 Again he asked, "What shall I compare the kingdom of God to?
21 It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough."
I know I have posted this to you before Thrillobyte. Are you starting to see what these parables mean yet?
The Kingdom starts small like a tiny mustard seed, but eventually it grows into a big tree so the birds can come and rest on it. The Kingdom is represented by the tree. The birds are not part of the Kingdom. What do the birds represent?
Understand? How about the other parable? The Kingdom is like a tiny piece of yeast that is mixed in until it is worked through all the dough. The yeast is the Kingdom. What is the dough?
Yes there will be gnashing and weeping outside the Kingdom reign. Yes some will not be in the reign of the Kingdom. However - the birds and the dough are both outside the Kingdom - yet we do not see the birds/dough being eternally cast off.
Finally, consider that those in the reign of the Kingdom are the bride of Christ. Who is the bride speaking to here:
Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
Is the bride of Christ telling itself to come to the water of life? At this point, is the bride of Christ thirsty? The bride of Christ already has the water of life! And now it is freely available for all... its good news!
Luke 13
18 Then Jesus asked, "What is the kingdom of God like? What shall I compare it to?
19 It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his garden. It grew and became a tree, and the birds of the air perched in its branches."
WHO is the seed? Who is the tree? Who are the birds?
Quote:
20 Again he asked, "What shall I compare the kingdom of God to?
21 It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough."
Who is the yeast? Who is the flour? Who eats the bread? Ask yourself THAT question.
Quote:
I know I have posted this to you before Thrillobyte. Are you starting to see what these parables mean yet?
I really don't think you understand them, to be teaching them.
Quote:
The Kingdom starts small like a tiny mustard seed, but eventually it grows into a big tree so the birds can come and rest on it. The Kingdom is represented by the tree. The birds are not part of the Kingdom. What do the birds represent?
Umm, Gentiles. Men and women. Flesh and bone. The bird can be grafted INTO the tree, but unless this happens, they will only find refuge, not citizenship.
Quote:
Understand? How about the other parable? The Kingdom is like a tiny piece of yeast that is mixed in until it is worked through all the dough. The yeast is the Kingdom. What is the dough?
The yeast is the King, not the kingdom. The dough is men and women brought into contact with the King.
Quote:
Yes there will be gnashing and weeping outside the Kingdom reign. Yes some will not be in the reign of the Kingdom. However - the birds and the dough are both outside the Kingdom - yet we do not see the birds/dough being eternally cast off.
Unless a transforming takes place, the bird will NEVER be part of the tree. Ever. The dough is how we are changed, from unleaven to leaven. It is a growth process Jesus has shown that takes flour that is dead, and gives it life by introducing Himself into it causing the flour to take on a new life, and grow.
Quote:
Finally, consider that those in the reign of the Kingdom are the bride of Christ. Who is the bride speaking to here:
The rest of the earth, who else? It is called the great commission.
Quote:
Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
Quote:
Is the bride of Christ telling itself to come to the water of life?
Umm, no. They ALREADY drink from it.
Quote:
At this point, is the bride of Christ thirsty? The bride of Christ already has the water of life! And now it is freely available for all... its good news!
Like I said, you need to restudy your whole Kingdom theology. This is talking about preaching the Word. Not telling everyone they are already saved and drinking the Water of Life.
WHO is the seed? Who is the tree? Who are the birds?
Who is the yeast? Who is the flour? Who eats the bread? Ask yourself THAT question.
I really don't think you understand them, to be teaching them.
Check your ego Hotin. I am just explaining how I see it - how I see UR fitting the verses in this thread. I understand you see it differently.
Quote:
Unless a transforming takes place, the bird will NEVER be part of the tree. Ever. The dough is how we are changed, from unleaven to leaven. It is a growth process Jesus has shown that takes flour that is dead, and gives it life by introducing Himself into it causing the flour to take on a new life, and grow.
The rest of the earth, who else? It is called the great commission.
Of course. All can partake of the water of life for it is free for all. My question to you then is why do you think God will turn the tap off at some point?
Quote:
Like I said, you need to restudy your whole Kingdom theology. This is talking about preaching the Word. Not telling everyone they are already saved and drinking the Water of Life.
I have studied it and this is how I currently see it. So be it if you see it differently, I am explaining how UR fits with the verses in question. The point is that being "outside the Kingdom" does not mean that people will be forever separated from God.
I agree it is about preaching the word. But the parables illustrate that the Kingdom will reach all - God will be all in all, not all in some. God wants to save all. The water of life is available for all. You agree it is available for everyone. So then no problem - God will achieve what He wants - the salvation of all.
Of course there must be transformation. That is what God does through Christ in Hisown time, not ours. Transformation is God's work, not ours. Salvation is a complete work of God, right?
The point here is people are trying to say that not reigning with Christ in His Kingdom means you are toast - annihilated or eternally burning. Nothing is farther from the truth...
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), but I can understand people being happy when they think someone else has discovered truth. 
