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I'm positive that you have read more of The Bible than myself and I'm confused with something. I don't want you to think...oh Blue is challenging me. I would like to know what it is in the following which would seem to disagree with the momentum of your posts:
Jesus said, love thy neighbor, do not kill, turn the other cheek.
Why do we turn the other cheek exactly? My belief is that it further enhances our neighbors potential in Gods Will, that being the growing and becoming towards his or her sanctification
Our neighbor learns through our example... patience, hope and charity as well dignity in our perception. Prohibiting an abject occurrence on him through retaliation is the path.
Continuing....
It is the mutual participation with our neighbor in keeping with Gods Will that as a human being our neighbor will grow through this act towards sanctification.
Turning the other cheek is not an individual moment for ourselves it is a process of growth for our neighbor.
We turn the other cheek expressing hope for our neighbors becoming. An act of charity , inspired as you know by The Holy Spirit.
The process is not possible and in opinion"not inspired" with.... an-anti life, diabolical, madman who has shown that killing is not only without remorse but in fact defines his nature.
How could it be possible to discern The Spirit in hope for progress in this man when we know, and he knows that only God could figure out what in the world to do with him ?
A being of proven & dedicated anti-life killing. As well, how can it not be a disrespect to the whole world and thus God in the acceptance of a continuance, of that mind. This is my opinion.
As far as the cheering in the streets goes...for myself of course I would surely not be interested and find another park bench to feed the birds and carry on. But....thats what I would do if it was about a football game, or whatever.
There will always be dynamics in society. The percentage of
people inclined to let it rip , well thats just because everyone is different.
I don't think its reasonable to expect some kind of perfect tie and suit world. Don't forget mans a slow poke...its only been a few years really since ...public hanging after church on Sunday helped the sandwiches go down...and not that many more since the coliseum tiger tear apart deals.
Were slow. With slow comes the mix. I think its good to be patient about things which allow us and our neighbor... to be.
The arguements about not standing up for what is right are not fair. Where would man be..
I will tell you. There would be just one man. A Bully
Hi BlueHue,
From what I understand of your post, you've basically said that violence is necessary because otherwise there will be unbridled violence in the world.
In reality, the violence here has been started between governments, not madmen on the street. And in order for governments to do their dirty work, they need young (poor) people enrolled in the military. They train them to see the others as "less than human" and unleash them like dogs to do their desire.
There are indeed violent personalities in the world, and there are many ways to restrain such people so that they do not cause harm to others. Like putting a muzzle on a pitbull, there are solutions possible without killing the pitbull just because it bites.
In this case, however, we are talking about killing on a great scale. In order to kill this Bin Laden, at least 14,000 Afghan civilians were also killed. That fact alone should make one stop and think.
We are not obligated to do other people's dirty work. Jesus calls us to turn the other cheek, and to not resist evil. We are to L-O-V-E those who don't love us. That is the higher way. That is Jesus' commandment to ALL men and women, whether American or not.
Unfortunately, as others have mentioned here, many Christians today are no different than the rest of the world. In fact, in some ways, they are worse.
From what I understand of your post, you've basically said that violence is necessary because otherwise there will be unbridled violence in the world.
In reality, the violence here has been started between governments, not madmen on the street. And in order for governments to do their dirty work, they need young (poor) people enrolled in the military. They train them to see the others as "less than human" and unleash them like dogs to do their desire.
There are indeed violent personalities in the world, and there are many ways to restrain such people so that they do not cause harm to others. Like putting a muzzle on a pitbull, there are solutions possible without killing the pitbull just because it bites.
In this case, however, we are talking about killing on a great scale. In order to kill this Bin Laden, at least 14,000 Afghan civilians were also killed. That fact alone should make one stop and think.
We are not obligated to do other people's dirty work. Jesus calls us to turn the other cheek, and to not resist evil. We are to L-O-V-E those who don't love us. That is the higher way. That is Jesus' commandment to ALL men and women, whether American or not.
Unfortunately, as others have mentioned here, many Christians today are no different than the rest of the world. In fact, in some ways, they are worse.
Blessings,
brian
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I think your mixing two or three items here. I will offer my opinion on some of the thoughts.
If a bank is held up and many are inside with plenty of life threatening
realities, would you dis-engage the rifle-man from the roof top . An individual is under direct siege with 2 or 3 already laying on the floor..?
(this is in address to query of justification for violence) No comparisons, simply an address of necessary justifiable violence in...principal. We are discussing morality within Christianity.
Continuing,
A defense-less country is not a rational choice.
Man is surely not at the point where defense is a non required item. All elaboration with respects to training, attitude, role would be im-material. The only way to satisfy this platform is to abolish defense. Illogical, I'm afraid.
The loss which you speak of is awful. What we know is that casualties would be least desired by government. If anything it would be the chief reason why, the matter has come to this date in time. No doubt. The matter is awful and I share in your passionate movement for peace. Saving lives I believe is the entirety of the initiative.
As well I'm not their on the Field, I'm not aware of every single military concern . I simply cannot criticize that which I do not know. A person would have to be a Pentagon Specialist or a General. Its just way too complicated.
Also hands on experience including victimization, psychotic mind, is helpful....Why? Because that is what we are talking about.
I think your mixing two or three items here. I will offer my opinion on some of the thoughts.
If a bank is held up and many are inside with plenty of real life threatening
realities, would you dis-engage the rifle-man from the roof top . An individual is under direct siege with 2 or 3 already laying on the floor..?
(this is in address to query of justification for violence) No comparisons, simply an address of necessary justifiable violence in...principal. We are discussing morality within Christianity.
Continuing,
A defense-less country is not a rational choice.
Man is surely not at the point where defense is a non required item. All elaboration with respects to training, attitude, role would be im-material. The only way to satisfy this platform is to abolish defense. Illogical, I'm afraid.
The loss which you speak of is awful. What we know is that casualties would be least desired by government. If anything it would be the chief reason why, the matter has come to this date in time. No doubt. The matter is awful and I share in your passionate movement for peace. Saving lives I believe is the entirety of the initiative.
As well I'm not their on the feild, I'm not aware of every single military concern or possible threat. I simply cannot criticize that which I do not know. A person would have to be a Pentagon Specialist or a General. Its just way too complicated. How do we know of other potential threats ect ect that are wisely kept privileged?
Also hands on experience including victimization, psychotic mind, is helpful....Why? Because that is what we are talking about.
Thanks Brian and tomorows another day for me...Its good to see the passion for life.
Sorry about the tooth! No fun, I'm sure..
Non-violence is a very feasible practice. When people hold up a bank, we ought to give them the money rather than kill. What's more important, life or money??
The scenarios of boogeymen and serial killers is not justification for retaliation with violence. And there is certainly no need for so many military armaments for a few people who need psychological help.
There is the state, and there is Christ. Although we are commanded to pay taxes and abide by the rules of the country we live in, we are called to be a Light, and to not participate in the wars and dirty activities of those who are not following Christ. We are not called to defend a state (did you choose to be born in America? Of course not!). The concept of state is not biblical, and that is because God has made all people. Why then must we defend a concept that the Bible does not acknowledge??
The Amish do not participate in war, and they are not involved in political activities. The same is true for Jehovah's Witnesses. Quakers are also pacifists, and do not participate in government activity.
I believe these groups are a demonstration of how man ought to live. If we call ourselves "Christians," then we must walk as Jesus walked. Our home is not here. Our home is in heaven. The Kingdom of God is within us, and the Spirit of God has nothing to do with violence, war, lying, deception, greed, envy, pride, etc.
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A small part of me is tempted to celebrate his death, but then another side just says it's silly and it would indeed be lowering myself to their level. Right now I don't have the energy to feel anything much but fatigue over this endless cycle of death and violence. What happened on 9/11 was so horrible, but I don't like this idea of each side just hitting back with reprisals...it's crap like that which started the World Wars. I'm far more concerned with the overall impact of the 'War on Terror' and the the lives of both civilians and allied military personnel duped into believing they are on some kind of important mission. I just wish we could defeat violence with peace, instead of violence with more violence.
I must admit when I heard the news my first gut reaction was " Good that SOB got what he deserved. " I am ashamed that I thought that because we should not relish any ones death. My head tells me I should follow Jesus and love my ememies even if I abhor their actions. My heart has not yet caught up with that even though I am working on it. I fall short of what God wants of us. I pray for God's help in overcomming this flaw in myself. I understand why people are happy he is dead but it does not change the fact that God loves him too and that Jesus died for him also.
Actually, I'm glad to hear that you don't hate them Finn. Because we are called to respect all powers that be, including them.
You can start by respecting the SEAL team who killed him, Obama who authorized the strike, and the American people who support the mission. Reading your comments about this issue, it seems you are low on respect and high on judgment for them.
You can start by respecting the SEAL team who killed him, Obama who authorized the strike, and the American people who support the mission. Reading your comments about this issue, it seems you are low on respect and high on judgment for them.
Actually, Jesus teaches us to not kill people. I'm surprised you have forgotten that, Finn.
Non-violence is a very feasible practice. When people hold up a bank, we ought to give them the money rather than kill. What's more important, life or money??
You and I can make that decision about our own money. But the money in a bank is being held in trust for thousands of people, not just you and I. Each person with money in a bank would have to make that decision, on a personal basis. When that happens, then I would have no problem with your solution. Until then, the gov't has assumed responsibility to protect it's citizens and their property from those who would do harm. The gov't is not called to turn the other cheek because the gov't is not a person ... it only represents whole communities of persons who may or may not understand Love as you do.
This is where I see the basic breakdown in your arguments. Isn't this whole process of "turning the other cheek", etc., about each of us learning and growing, individually, to Love? No one can force another to learn that lesson at the same time, at the same rate, in the same way. And until each one of us has learned to Love unselfishly, and the scale has tipped so that Love outweighs non-love, we are not going to be able to act as a "whole" (as a group) in Love, but only as individual Lights in the darkness.
Each person must let their Light shine to the extent that they have Light. As we do that, hopefully, more and more people who have been on the receiving end of Love will also learn to Love and a domino effect will ensue.
You and I can make that decision about our own money. But the money in a bank is being held in trust for thousands of people, not just you and I. Each person with money in a bank would have to make that decision, on a personal basis. When that happens, then I would have no problem with your solution. Until then, the gov't has assumed responsibility to protect it's citizens and their property from those who would do harm. The gov't is not called to turn the other cheek because the gov't is not a person ... it only represents whole communities of persons who may or may not understand Love as you do.
This is where I see the basic breakdown in your arguments. Isn't this whole process of "turning the other cheek", etc., about each of us learning and growing, individually, to Love? No one can force another to learn that lesson at the same time, at the same rate, in the same way. And until each one of us has learned to Love unselfishly, and the scale has tipped so that Love outweighs non-love, we are not going to be able to act as a "whole" (as a group) in Love, but only as individual Lights in the darkness.
Each person must let their Light shine to the extent that they have Light. As we do that, hopefully, more and more people who have been on the receiving end of Love will also learn to Love and a domino effect will ensue.
Governments protect the interests of a few, not the poor majority. (It's unfortunate, but since the governments are not Christian, it's quite natural..)
Banks have the right to coin money. I don't think they are too worried about a low-level criminal who will probably end up getting arrested and the money returned anyway..
On a personal level, I agree that we are all on a path, and that we "bring to the table" the things that we have each been given. What amazes me (or maybe not) is how the very basic teachings of Jesus (let's forget about rapture, tribulations, seven-headed beasts and all the rest), the very basic teachings of Jesus: love your neighbor as yourself, love your enemies, be merciful, condemn not... all of these are not practiced by the majority of "Christians."
We should be seeing a different reaction from Christians regarding the wars and endless bloodshed done in the world, but we don't. As noted on the "Christians for peace" website, pastors by and large do NOT teach their congregations how they should be living. The "evil" they focus on is Harry Potter, homosexuals and Islam.
Blessings,
brian
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No fun, I'm sure..
