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It is only a tough read if you do not compare it to other Scripture to get the full perspective. He is long suffering, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. In the mean time God suffers with them as He did with us and if they do not repent they are fitted to destruction. Those who do not repent when called, He hardens. Those who are hardened are lead away from the church lest they be a needless thorn. He made them even though He knows the end result, but He gives all a genuine open door to salvation. It only proves free will when called and equal opportunity to salvation.
There is no such thing as free will. God is sovereign over all.
There is no such thing as free will. God is sovereign over all.
I can understand why you think that but take another look. If I might guess, you might be are referring to what Jesus said, "You did not choose Me but I chose you." but it is also written, "Many are called but few are chosen." The choice only comes when He calls because it is only of His ability to grant repentance and the will to follow but many refuse when they are given the will to do so. He doesn't call in vain even though they reject because as faithful Creator he is obligated to be fair to all.
PROV 1:24 "Because I have called, and you refused; I have stretched out My hand, and no man regarded;
PROV 1:25 But you have set at naught all My counsel, and would none of my reproof:
PROV 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear comes;
PROV 1:27 When your fear comes as desolation, and your destruction comes as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish comes upon you.
PROV 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
PROV 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:"
I can understand why you think that but take another look. If I might guess, you might be are referring to what Jesus said, "You did not choose Me but I chose you." but it is also written, "Many are called but few are chosen." The choice only comes when He calls because it is only of His ability to grant repentance and the will to follow but many refuse when they are given the will to do so. He doesn't call in vain even though they reject because as faithful Creator he is obligated to be fair to all.
PROV 1:24 "Because I have called, and you refused; I have stretched out My hand, and no man regarded;
PROV 1:25 But you have set at naught all My counsel, and would none of my reproof:
PROV 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear comes;
PROV 1:27 When your fear comes as desolation, and your destruction comes as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish comes upon you.
PROV 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
PROV 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:"
Do you really believe that God mocks and laughs at people who make bad choices? Do you believe God rejoices in calamity? What about the scriptures that say he has no pleasure in the punishment of the wicked? Why the contradictions? There are two voices throughout the scriptures. Is God violent or gentle? Or both? And there are two "beings" inside every person as well. So anyway, it's not as simple as some people make it out to be. The whole of God is very big. It is futile for us to think we can understand all things.
No, that is not what foreknowledge is...Here is the definition of the word used in scripture by Paul in Romans:
προγινώσκω
proginōskō
prog-in-oce'-ko
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
If one knows something beforehand because they looked into the future and saw it then it is not foreknowledge...This word has a sense of ordination...If Hawyaw is Omniscient, then there is nothing that He has not known, and if there is nothing He has not known then that means He did not have to look into the future to learn about it...He ordained everything the happen according to His Plan and Council...That is what Omniscience is...
It sounds like you have the right defintion for foreknowledge, but your conclusions based on that definition are totally unconnected with the definition and therefore invalid.
No, that is not what foreknowledge is...Here is the definition of the word used in scripture by Paul in Romans:
προγινώσκω
proginōskō
prog-in-oce'-ko
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
If one knows something beforehand because they looked into the future and saw it then it is not foreknowledge...This word has a sense of ordination...If Hawyaw is Omniscient, then there is nothing that He has not known, and if there is nothing He has not known then that means He did not have to look into the future to learn about it...He ordained everything the happen according to His Plan and Council...That is what Omniscience is...
I find the definition you have laid out to be a great comfort -- to know that God who is GOOD is in control of a Divine Plan that He has fore-ordained. What could be more comforting, particularly in times when we are confused, afraid, etc... of the unknown - then we trust His Heart and His Plan. BTW, God's divine Plan includes both great joy and great trials for everyone. Neat, huh!
Do you really believe that God mocks and laughs at people who make bad choices? Do you believe God rejoices in calamity? What about the scriptures that say he has no pleasure in the punishment of the wicked? Why the contradictions? There are two voices throughout the scriptures. Is God violent or gentle? Or both? And there are two "beings" inside every person as well. So anyway, it's not as simple as some people make it out to be. The whole of God is very big. It is futile for us to think we can understand all things.
No, it is only when they are persistently and willfully disregard Gods warnings over and over. But that was not the point I was making. It was about choice. The other just happens to be a part of those Scriptures. Regarding your point, Jesus was and is ambivalent of nature [the mixture of two thoughts on a matter]. He is angry with sin all day long because it hurts the innocent but His arm is out stretched still to save, the Scripture says.
Ambivalence does not mean contradictory of nature but rather complex of nature as we all are, but with Him it is perfectly balanced. We are made in His image and therefore experience similar feelings and thoughts, howbeit unbalanced often times. The ambivalence of Scripture is probably why you have a hard time agreeing with a lot of Scripture. An example of the ambivalence of Christ was when He was angry [not tender] with the Pharisees because He has to let them and us know how He feels about their ways but in the next breath He remembered that they were just mortal and showed mercy to them. Mercy triumphed over final judgment in this case. It is the goodness of the Lord that leads to repentance but it is also written, "My Spirit will not always strive with man [to save] because he is also flesh. And as you know a fleshly nature can not inherit the Kingdom of God because the carnal mind is not capable of the Spiritual things of God. "You must be born again"
Amen. That "hearing" by which comes faith would do us no good if we are still in our spiritually dead state.
I would say you hit the nail on the head...One must be in a regenerated state in order for it to have effect...And that regeneration is soley of Hawyaw's doing...Not of us...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310
It's unfortunate that so many professing Christians take such issue with the (so-called) doctrines of grace, when if they would examine them honestly they would find that they make biblical sense.
Grace is simply unmerited favor...It is unexpected...You are sitting in a diner and order a cup of coffee...The waitress returns with your coffee AND a slice of cake...You respond to this act with 'Thank You, that was gracious of you'...Did she bring a free piece of cake to everyone in the diner?...As you look around, you realize that only a few she was gracious with...Not all...
Last edited by Richard1965; 10-31-2011 at 08:37 AM..
It might help for you to look at Romans 9. Below is a pasage that speaks to your concern:
Rom 9:20-23
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
It's a hard doctrine, and one that none of us necessarily likes. But it does seem to be what God's Word teaches.
Let's remember that it is all ultimately for God's sovereign good pleasure and for His glory.
Rom 9:15 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion
Rom 9:18 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Tough reading, I will admit. But we must go with what is written.
I'd like to point out that the Greek verb for fitted reads in the Greek as 'having been fitted' for destruction...Which implies that they were made for that purpose...For how shall the vessels of Mercy really understand what has been done for them unless there is something to compare it to...I offer you $100 and others $5...Unless you know the value of money, you do not really know or appreciate it...
It is only a tough read if you do not compare it to other Scripture to get the full perspective. He is long suffering, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. In the mean time God suffers with them as He did with us and if they do not repent they are fitted to destruction. Those who do not repent when called, He hardens. Those who are hardened are lead away from the church lest they be a needless thorn. He made them even though He knows the end result, but He gives all a genuine open door to salvation. It only proves free will when called and equal opportunity to salvation.
How do you explain Pharoah?...This is not what it says...You are ignoring the other parts of that section...
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BTW, God's divine Plan includes both great joy and great trials for everyone. Neat, huh!
