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Negative comments are unwelcome on this thread. They serve no purpose in debate. Eventually, threads get shut down because of them, and I wouldn't like to see that happen to this thread.
I assure you, I have read and studied Romans many times, and I've actually got it down to 30 minutes.
The context seems to begin at verse 5. I do not see where these verses teach that we are incapable of seeking God. I see nothing that says we must be regenerated first. The verses are simply comparing those who choose to let their human nature control them with those who are controlled by the Spirit.
v5 Some people live under the control of their human nature. Their natural desires control their minds. Other people live under the control of the *Holy Spirit. The Spirit guides their minds. v6 The result of our natural thoughts and desires is death. But the result of the thoughts that come from the Spirit is life and *peace. v7 Our natural thoughts and desires oppose God. Such thoughts do not obey God’s law. In fact, such thoughts are not even able to obey God’s law. v8 Nobody who lives by their natural desires can ever please God.
Katie
Here in lies the problem with liberaly translated version...They water down the strength of what has been originally written...All they are are interprated renderings of the Holy Scriptures...Just as the New World Translation is merely an interpreted version based on personal interpretations of the Greek words, these English translations are even more so for they interpret the meaning of Scripture thereby changining the meaning...They do not give one a better understanding but rather a desired understanding, so one has a choice depending on which one tells it as one wants to see it...
THE DOCTRINE THAT SAYS WE ARE SO TOTALLY DEPRAVED WE CANNOT SEEK GOD IS FALSE!
If man is so totally depraved that he can't seek God without being regenerated first, how is it Adam and Eve carried on a conversation with God after they sinned? How is it that God spoke to them, and they HEARD AND UNDERSTOOD? If Adam and Eve could hear and understand God in their depraved condition, then so can we. It looks like A & E were not so dead as calvinists claim.
Adam and Eve also heard and understood each other, just as we do today. If a man states a proposition and backs it up with sufficient evidence, a sinner can believe him.
The more one digs into this false doctrine, the more holes one finds, and the more ridiculous it becomes.
THE DOCTRINE THAT SAYS WE ARE SO TOTALLY DEPRAVED WE CANNOT SEEK GOD IS FALSE!
If man is so totally depraved that he can't seek God without being regenerated first, how is it Adam and Eve carried on a conversation with God after they sinned? How is it that God spoke to them, and they HEARD AND UNDERSTOOD? If Adam and Eve could hear and understand God in their depraved condition, then so can we. It looks like A & E were not so dead as calvinists claim.
Adam and Eve also heard and understood each other, just as we do today. If a man states a proposition and backs it up with sufficient evidence, a sinner can believe him.
The more one digs into this false doctrine, the more holes one finds, and the more ridiculous it becomes.
Katie
For Pete's sake, Katie...Will you just listen to yourself?...They started out with Hawyaw...We do not...We do not have the relationship that they initially had...Calvin never said that they were, however, we are...And if we are that in tune then and are able to seek Hawyaw, then why did Jeshua have to die on the Cross?...If we are able to seek Hawyaw then we do not need to go through Jeshua...It is that simple...We are able to do it ourselves...We do not need Jeshua...
Is it possible to be saved and NOT be regenerated?
Is it possible to be regenerated and NOT be saved?
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
No . . . regeneration was for the entire species and it saved us all from eternal separation from God, period.
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Originally Posted by atomtkirk
No to both questions?
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Yes.
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Originally Posted by atomtkirk
do you believe that regeneration comes before faith?
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
::Sigh:: Regeneration occurred the day that Christ was reborn as Spirit (resurrected) and it was for our entire species. His Holy Spirit became a permanent part of the collective human consciousness connecting our embryo Spirits to God.
So... everyone who is saved is regenerated.
And... everyone who is regenerated is saved.
And then... at some point later you believe in God?
So... everyone who is saved is regenerated.
And... everyone who is regenerated is saved.
And then... at some point later you believe in God?
Hey Atom,
As soon as one realizes that Adam and Eve carried on a conversation with God whom THEY HEARD AND UNDERSTOOD AFTER THEY SINNED, it blows the whole doctrine of total depravity/inability right out of the water doesn't it? It is not only a false doctrine but one of the most ridiculous.
And if we are that in tune then and are able to seek Hawyaw, then why did Jeshua have to die on the Cross?...If we are able to seek Hawyaw then we do not need to go through Jeshua...It is that simple...We are able to do it ourselves...We do not need Jeshua...
listen to yourself... and then read the account of the Eunuch. He was reading the scriptures. he was seeking God in his words...
And He needed Jeshua.
He wasn't reading the scriptures cause there was gonna be a multiple choice test when he got home. He wasn't reading it to find out if Edward and Bella get married. He was SEEKING.
No. Regeneration does not precede faith. Regeneration refers to being born again which follows faith in Christ. It does not precede it.
Acts 16:31'Believe (have faith) in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved (as a result of being born again - regenerated.) The Greek word translated as regenerated is Palingenesias and refers to a new birth through faith in Christ.
Those who believe that regeneration precedes faith don't understand that the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common grace makes the gospel message understandable to the unbeliever so that he can make a decision concerning Christ. The common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit includes His convicting the world (unbeliever) of the sin of unbelief, of righteousness, and of judgment (John 16:8-11).
I agree with you. Can one say that faith and regeneration happens at the same time? In other words, you don't have to wait on being regenerated, it happens the moment God puts in your heart to accept Jesus to save your soul.
I agree with you. Can one say that faith and regeneration happens at the same time? In other words, you don't have to wait on being regenerated, it happens the moment God puts in your heart to accept Jesus to save your soul.
Hi Antredd. For all practical purposes, regeneration occurrs at the very moment of faith in Christ. But logically speaking, faith precedes regeneration since there is no regeneration without there first being a faith response to the gospel message. Maybe 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000th of a second separates the two. Add as many additional zeros as you wish.
Being born again or regenerated is solely dependent upon trusting in Christ for your salvation. It does not depend on being baptized in water or in anything else one might imagine as being a work of God which you must do.
A work of God is done BY God. The work of God in providing salvation was accomplished by God the Father sending Jesus Christ into the world as a man to die for the sins of the world. The work of God involved judging Jesus Christ for those sins.
Now in John 6:29 Jesus called believing in Him the work - 'singular' of God, but that was a play on words in response to having been asked what the works - 'plural' of God were that they may be done. Believing on Christ is not a work as Ephesians 2:8-9 make clear.
There is no merit in faith itself and therefore no one can take any credit for having faith. All the merit, all the credit is in the object of faith which is Jesus Christ. Faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross is simply the means through which the one placing his trust in Christ receives the free gift of eternal life.
So... everyone who is saved is regenerated.
And... everyone who is regenerated is saved.
And then... at some point later you believe in God?
Why do you insist on putting your spin on things. EVERYONE is saved by Christ . . . but not everyone accepts or listens to His Holy Spirit within to "love God and each other" and be sanctified/justified in their "works." Some who claim to know Him do NOT listen and some who do not know of Him DO listen. We will reap what we sow . . . but we are all "saved as by fire."
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Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Hey Atom,
As soon as one realizes that Adam and Eve carried on a conversation with God whom THEY HEARD AND UNDERSTOOD AFTER THEY SINNED, it blows the whole doctrine of total depravity/inability right out of the water doesn't it? It is not only a false doctrine but one of the most ridiculous.
Katie
Amen. God always hears us and since Christ's rebirth as Spirit His Holy Spirit is within our consciousness to guide us to what God has "written in our hearts." God is no respecter of persons and does not discriminate. As I said elsewhere . . . "God is an equal opportunity loving Father." Any problems in communication are all on our end.
why do you think? This is the "Does regeneration come before faith" thread.
I do so in an effort to prove my position on the matter. To get people to think about things... You put your own spin on things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
EVERYONE is saved by Christ . . . but not everyone accepts or listens to His Holy Spirit within to "love God and each other" and be sanctified/justified in their "works." Some who claim to know Him do NOT listen and some who do not know of Him DO listen. We will reap what we sow . . . but we are all "saved as by fire."
Are you really a PhD?
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Here's a conversation a few pages back...
This is the "Does regeneration come before faith" thread. 
