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Regarding the black - No it does not. Do you think worldly dictionary authors are going to understand spiritual things?
Jesus tells you into whom (not what) you need to be baptized. You, Katie, and whomever else should do some research and find out what He meant by this instead of assuming He means water. If he wanted to use water, He would have said so - but He didn't.
Regarding the tongues - that was used to help Peter identify the fact that Gentiles have also received the Holy Spirit - which had never happened before up to that point (see Acts 11 for his testimony).
DRob,
I have spent countless hours researching, as you suggested I should.
I would pose the same question right back to you. If Jesus had meant baptism with the Holy Spirit in His commission to His apostles and us, why didn't He say so? He didn't. He didn't say water either. But He didn't need to say it.
It is a GIVEN because men cannot baptize with the Holy Spirit. Only Jesus can do that. The command was given to mortal men. The only baptism man can administer is water.
Now if you want to say that when a person is water baptized, they are also at the same time baptized with the Holy Spirit, I can accept that, even though I don't agree with it. But at least it seems more feasible to me. There are those who do believe they occur at the same time, I'm just not one of them at this current time in my studies. However, I am still open to that teaching, just not convinced.
There is only ONE baptism DRob. As far as I know, Jesus never recinded His command for us to make disciples of all nations baptizing them. As far as I can tell, the only baptism is water baptism, unless you accept that both baptisms occur simultaneously.
It is when we are baptized in water that God chooses to save us. That is when we become free from our sins.
There is no other purpose for water baptism stated in the New Testament other than to have one's sins washed away, to be added to the Lord's church, to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (whatever you believe that to mean), to be born again, and to be saved.
NOTHING is ever mentioned about a public testimony. That is man's doctrine, and man's alone. It is not Biblical.
It's not that Jesus simply died, but rather that He died for our sins, according to the scriptures (Isa 53:5). And, it's not simply that Christ was buried and resurrected, but rather he was buried and resurrected for our justification, according to the scriptures (Isa 53:11). That is the Good News of the Gospel. Sins ARE forgiven and we ARE justified by Christ's work on the cross for us. These are objective truths (facts) that occurred on the cross nearly 2,000 years ago.
Do we agree on this part? I'll get to the rest of your post if we first agree on this.
Alabama,
You asked me some questions. I have answered them in post #362. I would appreciate a response. I asked you some very specific questions, which I would like for you to answer. I have answered your questions. Now please answer mine.
I've already stated what the gospel is in post #362. I don't think any further elaboration is needed. I will say that I absolutely agree that Jesus died for our sins, and if we obey the gospel, our sins will be blotted out.
We are told that we must obey the gospel, and if we don't, we will suffer everlasting punishment.
Obey infers that a command has been given. Where in the NT are we commanded to be baptized with the Holy Spirit?
You have already agreed that Jesus commanded us to be baptized in water. Approximately ten days after Jesus gave this command, we see the apostle Peter standing up in front of thousands of Jews telling them to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. Peter is carrying out Jesus' commission. He cannot order people to be baptized with the Holy Spirit. It is impossible!!!
Jesus promised to baptize with the Holy Spirit, but He never commanded it.
Where in the New Testament does it show someone obeying the command to be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Every time baptism with the Holy Spirit occurs, it is done by SURPRISE! It is totally UNEXPECTED. No command is ever connected to it.
I agree that the apostles had the power to lay their hands on individuals so they may receive gifts of the HS. This, however, is not baptism with the Holy Spirit. There are only two instances of baptism with the HS in the entire NT. It happened on the day of Pentecost, and again at the house of Cornelius.
So again, where is the command to be baptized with the Holy Spirit?
And finally, how is baptism with the Holy Spirit a likeness of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus? Are you buried in the Holy Spirit? Are you raised out of the Holy Spirit? This makes no sense at all.
Water baptism is the picture of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. You refuse to see it.
There can be only ONE baptism. Jesus never recinded His command for us to be baptized in water.
You are totally disregarding the history of the early church. The early church fathers believed, taught and wrote that baptism was done by immersion. It is not until centuries later that people begin to teach baptism with the Holy Spirit.
So maybe it's time for us to just agree to disagree on this subject. I have enjoyed the discussion, but I don't see it going anywhere. We each have to make a choice in what we believe and teach. I respect your opinion, but I completely disagree with you.
Blessings to you,
Katie
To the red, bold - No, no, no - I did not agree to any water baptism.
To the question in blue, and all other occurrences - I have already explained how baptism with the Holy Spirit happens.
You keep coming back to this as though you have no clue what I have already said about the process a few times. Maybe you don't understand. Maybe you haven't even seriously considered anything I have to say.
Bold green - All believers are baptized with the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13).
What is the gospel? Is it not the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus as stated by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:1-4?
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.3For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received:that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
How can we OBEY the gospel?
We obey the Gospel by believing it:
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
The word "obey" is synonymous with the word "believed", as scripture clearly tells us.
Quote:
We are saved by the gospel. How?
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Isaiah (according to the scriptures) tells us this here:
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Isaiah (according to the scriptures) tells us what this means, here:
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
We are to believe the Gospel. That is what it means to "obey". And, what the Gospel proclaims to us, is what saves us.
It's evident that many here do not believe the Gospel. That is why many believe something else needs to be done to "save" them. And why most look to their faith, their repentance, their confession, their baptism, their works, etc., to save them. However, none of those things are the Good News of the Gospel.
You asked me some questions. I have answered them in post #362. I would appreciate a response. I asked you some very specific questions, which I would like for you to answer. I have answered your questions. Now please answer mine.
I've already stated what the gospel is in post #362. I don't think any further elaboration is needed. I will say that I absolutely agree that Jesus died for our sins, and if we obey the gospel, our sins will be blotted out.
Your friend even if you do disagree with me,
Katie
We really do not believe the same Gospel. You believe that "if we obey the Gospel, our sins will be blotted out". And that is not the Good News. The scriptures tell us that our sins ARE blotted out and ARE NOT being imputed against us, due to Christ's death for them:
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Isaiah tells us we ARE healed by His stripes, here:
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
This is the Gospel you do not believe. And this has been my point in all of the posts I've been making.
Am I correct in my understanding of what you believe?
I asked you some very specific questions, which I would like for you to answer. I have answered your questions. Now please answer mine.
What you've called "conditions" are not conditions of the Gospel, per se, but rather are the characteristics and fruit (ie: faith, repentance, baptism, confession, etc.) of those who have received the Gospel. IOW, those who believe the Gospel have repented. Those who believe the Gospel confess Christ. Those who believe the Gospel get baptized. Those who believe the Gospel have faith towards God, etc.
These characteristics and evidences of our salvation however, do not do the saving. They bring us the subjective knowledge of our salvation, but they do not save us objectively. Jesus alone does that.
The Gospel proclamation is an objective truth, whether we believe it or not. Nothing we do, or do not do, changes the facts concerning what Christ has accomplished for us. And it is that Good News, the objective facts of the Gospel, we are told to believe. It is that Good News that saves.
Yes, Jesus chose Paul to preach the gospel to the Gentiles.
Does Jesus tell Paul that water baptism should no longer be practiced? If Paul is told not to baptize, then NO ONE should be baptizing, not then, not now. According to you, there should be no water baptism being practiced anywhere. Is this what you think?
I'll just say water baptism is a 'schoolmaster'. Ummm... a milk doctrine. I believe that this is the only purpose water baptism serves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
I need to see scripture. I took the liberty of underlining what you need to post scripture for.
I agree that the Holy Spirit is the helper, comforter, encourager, and that He works through His word to convict us of our sins and to become more Christ like.
The gospel is the word of God, and we are told that if we do not obey the gospel, we will be punished with everlasting destruction.
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
How does one obey the truth, or obey the gospel?
In order to OBEY, there must be a command.
Where in the New Testament is baptism with the Holy Spirit commanded?
Blessings,
Katie
Quote:
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spiritunto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for eve
r. The spirit is now working through the Word of God to bring forth the new birth according to 1Pe 1:22-23.
The spirit refers to God’s presence and power.
Quoting “The Gift of Holy Spirit: The Power to be Like Christ” by??:
Quote:
Many words associated with God’s spirit give it the attributes of a liquid. Such language is consistent with the spirit being God’s presence and power. We are baptized(literally “dipped”) with and in it like water (Matt. 3:11; Acts 1:5). We are all made to “drink” from the same spirit, as from a well or fountain (1 Cor. 12:13). It is written on our hearts like ink (2 Cor. 3:3). We are “anointed” with it, like oil (Acts 10:38; 2 Cor. 1:21; 1 John 2:27). We are “sealed” with it as with melted wax (Eph. 1:13). It is “poured out” on us (Acts 10:45; Rom. 5:5). It is “measured” as if it had volume (2 Kings 2:9; John 3:34-KJV). We are to be “filled” with it (Acts 2:4; Eph. 5:18). This “filling” is to capacity at the new birth and to overflowing as we act according to its influence. Even the use of spirit as “wind” implies a liquidity, for air masses behave as a fluid, flowing from areas of higher to lower pressure. All this figurative language is designed to point us to the truth that the spirit of God is the invisible power and influence of God.
So In a nut shell, “baptism” of the ‘holy spirit’ is just a figurative way of saying that ‘god’ gives his spirit to us.
Last edited by kids in america_; 01-06-2012 at 03:53 PM..
Regarding the black - No it does not. Do you think worldly dictionary authors are going to understand spiritual things?
No, probably not, but I wasn't referring to a worldly dictionary author. I was referring to a Christian who authored a Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament. I believe this author probably would agree with you about baptism, but in order to be intellectually honest he had to define baptism as submersion in water because that's what it actually means.
Quote:
Jesus tells you into whom (not what) you need to be baptized. You, Katie, and whomever else should do some research and find out what He meant by this instead of assuming He means water. If he wanted to use water, He would have said so - but He didn't.
Yes, Jesus tells into whom to be baptized but He also tells us in what to be baptized (see John 3:5). Also, while Jesus didn't actually say it, I think the example of the Ethiopian eunuch is very instructive as to what baptism consists of as well as Acts 10:47-48.
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Regarding the tongues - that was used to help Peter identify the fact that Gentiles have also received the Holy Spirit - which had never happened before up to that point (see Acts 11 for his testimony).
I agree with you. Tongues was to help Peter identify the fact that Gentiles were to receive the Holy Spirit. That's precisely why he commanded them to be baptized in Acts 10:47-48. They were not justified, sanctified, or regenerated by speaking in tongues.
I'll just say water baptism is a 'schoolmaster'. Ummm... a milk doctrine. I believe that this is the only purpose water baptism serves.
Amen!
Quote:
The spirit is now working through the Word of God to bring forth the new birth according to 1Pe 1:22-23.
The spirit refers to God’s presence and power.
Quoting “The Gift of Holy Spirit: The Power to be Like Christ” by??:
So In a nut shell, “baptism” of the ‘holy spirit’ is just a figurative way of saying that ‘god’ gives his spirit to us.
It is a lack of faith in the Living Word of God who abides with us within our consciousness that causes this reliance on words "written in ink" and interpreted into "precepts and doctrines of men" involving rituals appealing to the superstitious and magical in us all, IMO.
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Sure wish JJ were here. 
