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All I'm trying to do is to get people to understand that John is in agreement with the other gospels regarding the fact that Jesus died on Passover day. I have provided the Scripture which proves this, and I have provided commentary which explains this.
What you are now doing is engaging in bickering. And I am not going to indulge you.
All four Gospels agree that Jesus was crucified on Passover.
With all due respect, Mike, you are so focused on the effort to make every word and phrase agree with every other word and phrase that you miss the point entirely, IMHO.
Does it make one iota of difference to the message of Jesus if he was crucified on this day or that?
What do you expect from documents which were written hundreds of miles and dozens of years apart, using different witness accounts? Let alone that between the writings of Genesis and the Old Testament and the writings of the New Testament occurred over a couple thousand years? My wife and I disagree on many things that happened 20-30 years ago and we were both there, both witnesses. I cant imagine the differences my cousins and I might have about my grandfather's acts, sermons, and admonitions.
All of your twistings and turnings, all of your efforts to make the Bible a single document in which all words, phrases, and books agree have caused you to lose sight of the most important thing: that Jesus preached eternal life to all who are right with God and right with their fellow men (and women, to be politically correct).
Here's what I believe. the bible teaches that the earth is flat, and it isn't. The bible teaches that the earth is a handful of thousands of years old. It is far far older. And you know what? It makes not one iota of a difference to the message of Jesus one way or another.
IMHO when one embarks on a journey such as yours, one is easily lost in trivia. Focus on what really matters. Love of God. Love of neighbor. Nothing else matters.
Not if you observe the plain meaning of words and that John doesn't mention Jesus' Passover meal that the synoptic gospels mention. Because, in John's version, Jesus was already dead.
John 19:14-15
14 And it was the preparation of the passover: it was about the sixth hour. And he says to the Jews: Behold your king.
15 They therefore cried out: Away with him, away with him, crucify him.
All four gospels mention the Passover dinner. Matthew, Mark, and Luke give details about the passover meal that John doesn't, and John gives details about the Passover meal that the others don't.
The Passover meal is mention in John 13. A common detail in all four gospels concerning the Passover meal is the mention by Jesus that He would be betrayed by one sitting with Him at the meal.
Matthew 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover. 20] 'Now when evening had come, He was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples. 21] And as they were eating, He said, ''Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me.'' 22] And being deeply grieved, they each one began to say to Him, ''Surely not I, Lord?'' 23] And He answered and said, ''He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me.
Mark 14:17 ''And when it was evening He came with the twelve. 18] And as they were reclining at the table and eating, Jesus said, ''Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me--one who is eaing with Me.'' 19] ''They began to be grieved and to say to Him one by one, ''Surely not I?'' 20] And He said to them, ''It is one of the twelve, one who dips with Me in the bowl.
Luke 22: 'And when the hour had come He reclined at the table and the apostles with Him ... 21] ''But behold, the hand of the one betraying Me is with Me on the table.
John 13:1 'Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He should depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. 2] And during supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him, ...21] ''When Jesus had said this, He became troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, ''Truly, truly, I say to you, that one of you will betray Me . 23] There was reclining on Jesus' breast one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved. 24] Simon Peter therefore gestured to him, and said to him, ''Tell us who it is of whom He is speaking.'' 25] He, leaning back thus on Jesus' breast, said to Him, ''Lord, who is it?'' 26] Jesus therefore answered, ''That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him.'' So when He had dipped the morsel, He took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27] And after the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus therefore said to him, ''What you must do, do quickly.
Again, the synoptic Gospels have details concerning the Passover meal that John's Gospel doesn't include. And John's Gospel has many details that the synoptic Gospels don't.
As for John 19:14 being the preparation for the Passover, that has already been thoroughly explained already. I made a point of explaining it, so you are going to have to go back and actually read what I've already said.
With all due respect, Mike, you are so focused on the effort to make every word and phrase agree with every other word and phrase that you miss the point entirely, IMHO.
Does it make one iota of difference to the message of Jesus if he was crucified on this day or that?
What do you expect from documents which were written hundreds of miles and dozens of years apart, using different witness accounts? Let alone that between the writings of Genesis and the Old Testament and the writings of the New Testament occurred over a couple thousand years? My wife and I disagree on many things that happened 20-30 years ago and we were both there, both witnesses. I cant imagine the differences my cousins and I might have about my grandfather's acts, sermons, and admonitions.
All of your twistings and turnings, all of your efforts to make the Bible a single document in which all words, phrases, and books agree have caused you to lose sight of the most important thing: that Jesus preached eternal life to all who are right with God and right with their fellow men (and women, to be politically correct).
Here's what I believe. the bible teaches that the earth is flat, and it isn't. The bible teaches that the earth is a handful of thousands of years old. It is far far older. And you know what? It makes not one iota of a difference to the message of Jesus one way or another.
IMHO when one embarks on a journey such as yours, one is easily lost in trivia. Focus on what really matters. Love of God. Love of neighbor. Nothing else matters.
May God's love be with you, my man.
Both the day that Jesus was crucified, and the agreement of the gospels one with the others is of great importance. Jesus as the Passover Lamb had to be sacrificed on the day of Passover. Not before, and not after.
The Gospels have to be in full agreement regarding the fact that Jesus was crucified on Passover day, or they would be in contradiction with each other and with the meaning of the Passover.
The Bible neither teaches that the earth is flat, or that it is only a few thousand years old. But those are off topic and won't be discussed on this thread.
Furthermore, concentrating on one particular subject does not at all imply that I have lost sight of anything else. Please keep your comments on the subject. Not about me.
Both the day that Jesus was crucified, and the agreement of the gospels one with the others is of great importance. Jesus as the Passover Lamb had to be sacrificed on the day of Passover. Not before, and not after.
The Gospels have to be in full agreement regarding the fact that Jesus was crucified on Passover day, or they would be in contradiction with each other and with the meaning of the Passover.
The Bible neither teaches that the earth is flat, or that it is only a few thousand years old. But those are off topic and won't be discussed on this thread.
Furthermore, concentrating on one particular subject does not at all imply that I have lost sight of anything else. Please keep your comments on the subject. Not about me.
~ Mike, no one ever said Jesus was the passover lamb.
This is not taught as scriptural truth.
Christ gave us The New Deal, not the same meal.
Christ gave His Disciples Bread & Wine as His Body & Blood.
Grain & Grape juice (wine of the vine).
He told them to do this in remembrance of Him.
Not "the passover of the Jews".
And did you know Moses was never instructed by God to use Wine for The Passover?
Both the day that Jesus was crucified, and the agreement of the gospels one with the others is of great importance. Jesus as the Passover Lamb had to be sacrificed on the day of Passover. Not before, and not after.
The Gospels have to be in full agreement regarding the fact that Jesus was crucified on Passover day, or they would be in contradiction with each other and with the meaning of the Passover.
The Bible neither teaches that the earth is flat, or that it is only a few thousand years old. But those are off topic and won't be discussed on this thread.
Furthermore, concentrating on one particular subject does not at all imply that I have lost sight of anything else. Please keep your comments on the subject. Not about me.
I have put in bold your comments that show you are approaching the Gospels with preconceived notions which are coloring your reading. As has been pointed out by several people now - you are trying to force Scripture into agreement, when they never claimed to agree with each other.
You have provided commentary, but it is not good commentary.
What you see as "clear" and "plain" and "true" is an old reading that is no longer subscribed to by those who study the text seriosuly, but is only retained by those who feel that "the Gospels have to be in full agreement" "or they would be in contradiction" (oh no!).
You are desparately trying to make them agree on a point in which they do not. You can get exasperated that virtually the entire scholarly community disagrees with you and John Gills, but that won't change the actual words of the text.
How about a commentary from a more modern source?
All four Gospels agree that Jesus was crucified on the Friday. According to Jewish reckoning the Friday began at 6 PM on the Thursday and ended at 6 PM on Friday. So all the events from the Last Supper to the burial took place on Friday according to Jewish reckoning.
But, whereas the Synoptics represent the Last Supper as a passover meal and so imply that Jesus was crucified on the first day of the feast of Passover, i.e. on the 15th Nisan, this verse [John 18:28] and also 19:14 and 31 seem to imply that the crucifixion took place on the day before the passover meal was eaten and therfore that in this year the 15th Nisan must have fallen on the Saturday (i.e. Friday 6 PM to Saturday 6 PM by our reckoning.)....
....the belief that Jesus was the true passover lamb (cf. I Cor. 5-7) may possibly account for the Johanine daying (for according to it Jesus would have died at the time the lambs were being killed.)
(C.E.B. Cranfield, Twentieth Century Bible Commentary, Revised Edition = 1955, Originally = 1932; pp. 448-449, New York: Harper Brothers)
But surely this well-respected commentary is written by a bunch of idiots, according to Mike! Mike has the "truth" concerning the matter, and no amount of experts will shake him from that "truth". This "truth" is also immune to a careful study of the actual texts, apparantly. The only thing that is "clear" is that the problem of John vs the Synoptics is a very old one, long-recognized by Christian exegetes and scholars.
The verses quoted by the commentary:
Then they took Jesus from Caiaphas to Pilate's headquarters. It was early in the morning. They themselves did not enter the headquarters, as so avoid ritual defilement and to be able to eat the Passover.
(John 18:28, NRSV)
Now it was the day of Preparation for the Passover; and it was about noon. He said to the Jews, "Here is your King!"
(John 19:14, ibid)
Since it was the Day of Preparation, the Jews did not want the bodies left on the cross during the sabbath, especially because that sabbath was a day of great solemnity. So they asked Pilate to have the legs of the crucified men broken and the bodies removed.
(John 19:31, ibid)
These verses have been supplied to more easily compare with the commentary offered from the Twentieth Century Bible Commentary. So, Mike - do you think the editors of this commentary were idiots, or what? You're increasingly being put into a minority position that is not born out by a careful study of Scripture, and your insistence that the Gospels MUST harmonize is your biggest stumbling block. Perhaps it's time to move past Elementary Gospel Studies and graduate to Gospel Studies 101. Seriously - this issue is not even open to debate anymore by serious students of the subject. Coming from a fundamentalist background, I understand how stubborn some people can be. I understand how precious church Dogmas (not found in Scipture for most of them) are to them. The inerrancy of Scipture is determined BEFORE an investigation of the Sciptures themselves - that's the biggest problem. Such conclusions should only be reached AFTER a careful study of the Sciptures. Spinoza, writing in the 1600s pointed this out. It appears that your approach to interpretation hasn't caught up with 400 year old Spinoza.
~ Mike, no one ever said Jesus was the passover lamb.
This is not taught as scriptural truth.
Christ gave us The New Deal, not the same meal.
Christ gave His Disciples Bread & Wine as His Body & Blood.
Grain & Grape juice (wine of the vine).
He told them to do this in remembrance of Him.
Not "the passover of the Jews".
And did you know Moses was never instructed by God to use Wine for The Passover?
Hi Pandora. At the Passover meal, Jesus did indeed institute something new. 'The Lord's Supper.' The bread represented His body which was about to be given, and the wine represented His blood of the new covenant which was poured out for the forgiveness of sins. And as you said, the Lord's supper was, and is to be done in rememberance of Him.
With regard to Passover, Exodus chapter 12 explains that Moses and the Hebrews were directed by God to sacrifice and consume roasted lamb as part of the Passover celebration. The blood was then spread on the doorposts and lintel as a sign of protection from the last plague - death of the first born son. The lamb which was chosen for sacrifice had to be unblemished. The sacrificed lamb became a substitute for the Lord’s judgment to “pass over†them. Therefore, Passover was to be observed in rememberance of the Lord for bringing them out from the land of Egyptâ€.
In like manner, Jesus Christ became a substitute for us, taking the judgment for our sins.
Let me show some comparisons.
1.) In Exodus 12:46 the ordinance of the Passover required that no bone of the sacrificed lamb was to be broken.
John 19:36 'For these things to come to pass, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, ''Not a bone of Him shall be broken.''
Psalm 34:20 'He keeps all His bones; Not one of them is broken.
Because it was the day of preparation for the Sabbath - the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread was a Sabbath day and was the day after Passover day proper, the Jews asked Pilate that the legs of Jesus and the two thiefs be broken to hasten their deaths. They did break the legs of the two thiefs, but when they came to Jesus they saw that He was already dead and so they did not break the bones of His legs.
2.) In John 19:29 Jesus is given 'hyssop.'
In Exodus 12:22 ''And you shall take a bunch of hyssop and dip it in the blood which is in the basin, and apply some of the blood that is in the basin to the lintel and the two doorposts; and none of you shall go outside the door of his house until morning.
The detail in John 19:29 of hyssop being given to Jesus points to Jesus dying as the true Lamb at Passover.
Jesus Christ is called the Lamb.
Isaiah 53:7 'He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth.
Revelation 13:8 says that Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 22:1 Jesus is the Lamb.
I hope you will take those passages and the comparisons into consideration.
I have put in bold your comments that show you are approaching the Gospels with preconceived notions which are coloring your reading. As has been pointed out by several people now - you are trying to force Scripture into agreement, when they never claimed to agree with each other.
You have provided commentary, but it is not good commentary.
What you see as "clear" and "plain" and "true" is an old reading that is no longer subscribed to by those who study the text seriosuly, but is only retained by those who feel that "the Gospels have to be in full agreement" "or they would be in contradiction" (oh no!).
You are desparately trying to make them agree on a point in which they do not. You can get exasperated that virtually the entire scholarly community disagrees with you and John Gills, but that won't change the actual words of the text.
How about a commentary from a more modern source?
All four Gospels agree that Jesus was crucified on the Friday. According to Jewish reckoning the Friday began at 6 PM on the Thursday and ended at 6 PM on Friday. So all the events from the Last Supper to the burial took place on Friday according to Jewish reckoning.
But, whereas the Synoptics represent the Last Supper as a passover meal and so imply that Jesus was crucified on the first day of the feast of Passover, i.e. on the 15th Nisan, this verse [John 18:28] and also 19:14 and 31 seem to imply that the crucifixion took place on the day before the passover meal was eaten and therfore that in this year the 15th Nisan must have fallen on the Saturday (i.e. Friday 6 PM to Saturday 6 PM by our reckoning.)....
....the belief that Jesus was the true passover lamb (cf. I Cor. 5-7) may possibly account for the Johanine daying (for according to it Jesus would have died at the time the lambs were being killed.)
(C.E.B. Cranfield, Twentieth Century Bible Commentary, Revised Edition = 1955, Originally = 1932; pp. 448-449, New York: Harper Brothers)
But surely this well-respected commentary is written by a bunch of idiots, according to Mike! Mike has the "truth" concerning the matter, and no amount of experts will shake him from that "truth". This "truth" is also immune to a careful study of the actual texts, apparantly. The only thing that is "clear" is that the problem of John vs the Synoptics is a very old one, long-recognized by Christian exegetes and scholars.
The verses quoted by the commentary:
Then they took Jesus from Caiaphas to Pilate's headquarters. It was early in the morning. They themselves did not enter the headquarters, as so avoid ritual defilement and to be able to eat the Passover.
(John 18:28, NRSV)
Now it was the day of Preparation for the Passover; and it was about noon. He said to the Jews, "Here is your King!"
(John 19:14, ibid)
Since it was the Day of Preparation, the Jews did not want the bodies left on the cross during the sabbath, especially because that sabbath was a day of great solemnity. So they asked Pilate to have the legs of the crucified men broken and the bodies removed.
(John 19:31, ibid)
These verses have been supplied to more easily compare with the commentary offered from the Twentieth Century Bible Commentary. So, Mike - do you think the editors of this commentary were idiots, or what? You're increasingly being put into a minority position that is not born out by a careful study of Scripture, and your insistence that the Gospels MUST harmonize is your biggest stumbling block. Perhaps it's time to move past Elementary Gospel Studies and graduate to Gospel Studies 101. Seriously - this issue is not even open to debate anymore by serious students of the subject. Coming from a fundamentalist background, I understand how stubborn some people can be. I understand how precious church Dogmas (not found in Scipture for most of them) are to them. The inerrancy of Scipture is determined BEFORE an investigation of the Sciptures themselves - that's the biggest problem. Such conclusions should only be reached AFTER a careful study of the Sciptures. Spinoza, writing in the 1600s pointed this out. It appears that your approach to interpretation hasn't caught up with 400 year old Spinoza.
That commentary you provided states right at the beginning that all four gospels agree that Jesus was crucified on the same day, but which according to them was on a Friday.
That agrees with what I've been saying on this thread (except that I disagree that Jesus was crucified on a Friday), and which you deny. You have said that the Gospel of Mark shows Jesus being crucified on Passover while John has Him being crucified a day earlier. I have said all along that all four Gospels are in agreement that Jesus was crucified on the same day. That day was Nisan 14 which was Passover day, the day of preparation for the Feast of Unleavened bread which was a seven day Feast. The first day of that Feast - Nisan 15 was a special Sabbath. Now in popular usage, Nisan 14 - Passover day was sometimes referred to as the first day of Unleavened Bread, though in a strict sense, Nisan 15 was the first day.
Now as for that commentarys statement that' [John 18:28] and also 19:14 and 31 seem to imply that the crucifixion took place on the day before the passover meal was eaten,' I have already addressed that in post #33.
The Passover meal is mentioned in John chapter 13. John clearly shows that Jesus ate the Passover meal prior to going to Gethsemane as mentioned in John 18:1 'When Jesus had spoken these words (everything between John chapters 13 and 18), He went forth with His disciples over the ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden (the garden of Gethsemane) into which He Himself entered, and His disciples. 2] Now Judas also, who was betraying Him, knew the place; for Jesus had often met there with His disciples.
Jesus ate the Passover meal at the beginning of Nisan 14 which began at sunset. The Jews who had brought Jesus to Pilate, had not yet eaten the Passover meal possibly because they were so involved in arresting Jesus and putting Him to trial.
Concerning the Bible Knowledge Commentary, 'copyright 1983' which you would present as a poor commentary despite knowing nothing about it, here is a review of it and a word about Roy Zuck and John Walvoord, the general editors of that Commentary.
This detailed yet readable commentary, based on the New International Version of the Bible, is ideal for pastors, Bible teachers, students, or anyone looking for a reliable help in personal Bible study. Now with updated contemporary covers, this classic series will reach a new generation of readers. With maps, charts, cross-references, bibliographies, book introductions, and helpful historical background, The Bible Knowledge Commentary Series addresses readers’ deepest questions as it draws them into the truth and power of Scripture.
About the Author
Roy B. Zuck (ThD, Dallas Theological Seminary) is senior professor emeritus of Bible Exposition at Dallas Theological Seminary where he has been teaching for the past 23 years. He has also served as vice president for Academic Affairs and academic dean. Dr. Zuck’s ministry is noted for clear exposition of Scripture with emphasis on application of the Bible to life. He is the author or editor of more than 90 books, has written scores of articles, and has long served as editor of Bibliotheca Sacra.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary is a well respected and authoritive commentary written by the faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary.
Now as far as this comment you made, 'You are desparately trying to make them agree on a point in which they do not. You can get exasperated that virtually the entire scholarly community disagrees with you and John Gills, but that won't change the actual words of the text.'
Insinuations of desperation and exasperation in the face of disagreement are unfounded and not true, but are made by you in an attempt to bolster your argument by attacking me. People often resort to such accusations thinking that it strengthens their own position.
All four Gospels are in complete agreement that Jesus was crucified on the same day. That day was Passover day.
Scripture does not need to be forced in order to make the four Gospels agree on the day of Jesus' crucifixion, it only needs to be understood in order to see that the four Gospels do agree.
For reference, my major posts on this thread are Posts #1, 10, 21, 33, and 40.
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