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The if you insist on this theory with no verification or scriptural support, why do you bother with threads like this? To demand that others adhere to your supposition?
You want to have your cake and eat it too. You claim Satan deceives humans into sin (Satan used the serpent to deceive the woman in order to get to Adam), but at the same time you proclaim MAN has free will despite the deception and influence of Satan.
This flies contrary to the basic definition of free will: Free will is the ability of to make choices free of constraints. WIKI
You state that God knows the outcomes, but still grants free will. That in itself is OK since God knows everything. However, determinism gets in the way of absolute free will.
So you have two strikes against you:
1. There cannot be free will when there is an outside influence deceiving you.
2. If the outcome is determined then free will is moot.
OTOH, the free will theory would work much better without the influence of Satan.
To the contrary. Man has volition. The ability to choose. God has revealed truth in his word. Satan deceives through his cosmic system.
Regarding Satan's cosmic system of good and evil, Lewis Sperry Chafer writes...
'Next to the lie itself, the greatest delusion Satan imposes---reaching to all unsaved and to a large proportion of Christians---is the supposition that only such things as society considers evil could originate with the devil---if, indeed, there be any devil to originate anything. It is not the reason of man, but the revelation of God, which points out that governments, morals, education, art, commercialism, vast enterprises and organizations, and much of religious activity are included in the cosmos diabolicus. That is, the system which Satan has constructed includes all the good which he can incorporate into it and be consistent in the thing he aims to accomplish. A serious question arises whether the presence of gross evil in the world is due to Satan's intention to have it so, or whether it indicates Satan's inability to execute all he has designed. The probability is great that Satan's ambition has led him to undertake more than any creature could ever administer. Revelation declares that the whole cosmos-system must be annihilated---not its evil alone, but all that is in it, both good and bad. God will incorporate nothing of Satan's failure into that kingdom which He will set up in the earth.'
Systematic Theology, Lewis Sperry Chafer, vol 2, p. 100-101.
Man can respond to the truth which God has revealed, or he can resist that truth. The more he resists truth the more vulnerable to cosmic deception he becomes.
Satan deceives the whole world. Rev 12:9 'And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
How does Satan deceive? Though religion, through philosophy, through educational systems, through the use of those whom he has deceived and who therefore further promote his deceptions, etc...
The only defense against the schemes and deceptions of Satan is the word of God. To be negative toward the absolute truth of God's word is to be under cosmic deception.
To the contrary. Man has volition. The ability to choose. God has revealed truth in his word. Satan deceives through his cosmic system.
Regarding Satan's cosmic system of good and evil, Lewis Sperry Chafer writes...
'Next to the lie itself, the greatest delusion Satan imposes---reaching to all unsaved and to a large proportion of Christians---is the supposition that only such things as society considers evil could originate with the devil---if, indeed, there be any devil to originate anything. It is not the reason of man, but the revelation of God, which points out that governments, morals, education, art, commercialism, vast enterprises and organizations, and much of religious activity are included in the cosmos diabolicus. That is, the system which Satan has constructed includes all the good which he can incorporate into it and be consistent in the thing he aims to accomplish. A serious question arises whether the presence of gross evil in the world is due to Satan's intention to have it so, or whether it indicates Satan's inability to execute all he has designed. The probability is great that Satan's ambition has led him to undertake more than any creature could ever administer. Revelation declares that the whole cosmos-system must be annihilated---not its evil alone, but all that is in it, both good and bad. God will incorporate nothing of Satan's failure into that kingdom which He will set up in the earth.'
Systematic Theology, Lewis Sperry Chafer, vol 2, p. 100-101.
Man can respond to the truth which God has revealed, or he can resist that truth. The more he resists truth the more vulnerable to cosmic deception he becomes.
Satan deceives the whole world. Rev 12:9 'And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
How does Satan deceive? Though religion, through philosophy, through educational systems, through the use of those whom he has deceived and who therefore further promote his deceptions, etc...
The only defense against the schemes and deceptions of Satan is the word of God. To be negative toward the absolute truth of God's word is to be under cosmic deception.
Good post, Mike.
God in His Word tells us that each one of us has a spiritual father - God, the Spirit of truth and life -- or Satan, the father of lies and eternal death. I believe Him. God is my Father and I know it. A whole lot of people have Satan as their father and they do not even know it.
42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” (John 8)
7Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’sb seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. (1 John 3)
How does Satan deceive? Though religion, through philosophy, through educational systems, through the use of those whom he has deceived and who therefore further promote his deceptions, etc...
The only defense against the schemes and deceptions of Satan is the word of God.
Mike:
Despite the copious references there is a fundamental flaw in your postulate.
A deceived person cannot make a sound decision. Outside interference destroys free will or volition because there is deception.
Your theology regarding evil and free will is easily solved by simply accepting Satan is the symbol of evil. In this instance then MAN deceived himself into making the wrong decision and the free will is maintained. However, once you introduced deception there cannot be any free will.
Furthermore, the concept of "Satan made me do it" or "I was tempted by Satan" implies lack of true free will.
Despite the copious references there is a fundamental flaw in your postulate.
A deceived person cannot make a sound decision. Outside interference destroys free will or volition because there is deception.
Your theology regarding evil and free will is easily solved by simply accepting Satan is the symbol of evil. In this instance then MAN deceived himself into making the wrong decision and the free will is maintained. However, once you introduced deception there cannot be any free will.
Furthermore, the concept of "Satan made me do it" or "I was tempted by Satan" implies lack of true free will.
Postulate? Assume? Did I postulate anything? No I did not!!! I have told you what the Bible (that's the word of God) reveals.
You yourself are under such strong delusion and deception that you are unable to see the truth. The Bible does not present Satan as a mere symbol of evil. The word of God is quite clear that Satan and the demons are real. Satan is not an allegory. Neither is the Bible as a whole as you claim it to be. The longer you refuse to accept the truth the stronger your deception will become.
Postulate? Assume? Did I postulate anything? No I did not!!! I have told you what the Bible (that's the word of God) reveals.
You yourself are under such strong delusion and deception that you are unable to see the truth. The Bible does not present Satan as a mere symbol of evil. The word of God is quite clear that Satan and the demons are real. Satan is not an allegory. Neither is the Bible as a whole as you claim it to be. The longer you refuse to accept the truth the stronger your deception will become.
The sad scenerio is that if one insists on wantonly to refuse the truth ... there is nothing stopping God in choosing to making it impossible to see.
The Lord gives and the Lord takes away ... that includes the ability to see the truth ...... aka time of grace.
Postulate? Assume? Did I postulate anything? No I did not!!! I have told you what the Bible (that's the word of God) reveals.
You yourself are under such strong delusion and deception that you are unable to see the truth. The Bible does not present Satan as a mere symbol of evil. The word of God is quite clear that Satan and the demons are real. Satan is not an allegory. Neither is the Bible as a whole as you claim it to be. The longer you refuse to accept the truth the stronger your deception will become.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
The sad scenerio is that if one insists on wantonly to refuse the truth ... there is nothing stopping God in choosing to making it impossible to see.
The Lord gives and the Lord takes away ... that includes the ability to see the truth ...... aka time of grace.
God in His Word tells us that each one of us has a spiritual father - God, the Spirit of truth and life -- or Satan, the father of lies and eternal death. I believe Him. God is my Father and I know it. A whole lot of people have Satan as their father and they do not even know it.
42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” (John 8)
7Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’sb seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. (1 John 3)
Thank you. People who try so hard to convince others that Satan is not real are simply his unwitting pawns being used by him to promote that belief. It suits Satan's purpose to have man believe that he isn't real.
People who try to pass Satan and the demons off as an allegory simply ignore the plain meaning of all the various passages which speak of their reality.
For instance, 2 Peter 2:4 speaks of the particular group of fallen angels who were involved in the Genesis 6 incident which caused the corruption of the human race by means of angelic breeding with human females which resulted in the Nephilim which God destroyed by means of the flood. The group of angels who were involved in that are currently imprisoned in Tartarus. 2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment (their future permanent imprisionment in the lake of fire).
This is also spoken of in 1 Peter 3:19-20. '...in which also He (Jesus Christ) went and made proclaimation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
Satan of course was the instigator of the Genesis 6 affair. Jesus had to come into the human race as true humanity in order to redeem man. Satan attempted to prevent this by turning the human race into a race of half angelic/half man beings. This in fact is the basis of much mythology.
These passages are clearly literal, and yet there are people who try to allegorize it.
The sad scenerio is that if one insists on wantonly to refuse the truth ... there is nothing stopping God in choosing to making it impossible to see.
The Lord gives and the Lord takes away ... that includes the ability to see the truth ...... aka time of grace.
That is true Twin. God does hand a person over to their persistant negative volition and to the resulting consequences. There can come a time when a person has rejected the truth so often and for so long that his negative volition becomes locked in and he cannot change. There is nothing left but for God to take that person out of this life.
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