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I think it's important to remember that when Jesus came the first time, he came to fulfill the law. As such, he didn't speak against it, he just showed the religious people their unreasonableness and their folly. From Pentecost onwards, Jesus has been returning in power, in people's lives, regenerating men one by one in love.
Notice how rarely the NT writers spoke of hell? Almost as though it were an afterthought. If Jesus was coming back as a raging king, don't you think it would merit a bit more serious discussion? And not a bunch of visions and metaphors in an experience to John on Patmos?
I think it's important to remember that when Jesus came the first time, he came to fulfill the law. As such, he didn't speak against it, he just showed the religious people their unreasonableness and their folly. From Pentecost onwards, Jesus has been returning in power, in people's lives, regenerating men one by one in love.
The point is that God does not change. The God today is the same God who created Adam and Eve, and who created te flood, and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and who gave Moses the law. The law includes the death penalty. Some people here argue that the flood never happened, and that God never gave Moses the law, and this argument is being made to support the view that a loving God would never do such things, but Jesus confirmed that God did create such law.
The point is that God does not change. The God today is the same God who created Adam and Eve, and who created te flood, and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and who gave Moses the law. The law includes the death penalty. Some people here argue that the flood never happened, and that God never gave Moses the law, and this argument is being made to support the view that a loving God would never do such things, but Jesus confirmed that God did create such law.
Quotes like
Quote:
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
and
Quote:
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:
are just as irrefutable.
God doesn't change. However, that's not the issue.
What changed is the passage from law to spirit.
So even if God decreed the Law, He did it for a period of time, with the intention that it would eventually be replaced.
Christ is our Law now. And this New Law is not written on a scroll somewhere, but in our hearts. Which is better, because you can't write a law physically on someone's heart or head.
But Christ is written in our hearts, and is there to guide us every hour.
The OT folks didn't have that blessing.
This is why Jesus was a scandal. He had something no one else had had (except for limited moments of anointing/inspiration).
He was using what THEY believed God said to convict them of hypocrisy in contravening it, period. Your indoctrination is too strong and immutable. It is very sad that you think so little of our loving Father because of what our savage ancestors believed about Him.
No, He was not. Jesus did not call a false belief of the Pharisees the word of God. Jesus did not say ''God said'' in connection with a false belief of the Pharisees.
The commnand that God gave was a part of the Mosaic Law which had been given to Israel by God through the mediation of angels.
Your answer to my question is that you do not believe Jesus. And this is the answer that I expected you to give. One of denial.
God doesn't change. However, that's not the issue.
What changed is the passage from law to spirit.
So even if God decreed the Law, He did it for a period of time, with the intention that it would eventually be replaced.
Christ is our Law now. And this New Law is not written on a scroll somewhere, but in our hearts. Which is better, because you can't write a law physically on someone's heart or head.
But Christ is written in our hearts, and is there to guide us every hour.
The OT folks didn't have that blessing.
This is why Jesus was a scandal. He had something no one else had had (except for limited moments of anointing/inspiration).
So, you agree that God gave such law, and you also agree that He is a never changing God. He is the same today as He was then, and the Bible says He will judge the wicked in the future. The instruction to love your neighbor is an instruction to us, Christian people, it says nothing about what God will do in the future.
So, you agree that God gave such law, and you also agree that He is a never changing God. He is the same today as He was then, and the Bible says He will judge the wicked in the future. The instruction to love your neighbor is an instruction to us, Christian people, it says nothing about what God will do in the future.
Jesus said that God said that those who speak evil of father or mother were to be put to death.
Matthew 15:3 And He (Jesus) answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4]"For God said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.'5] "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God," 6] he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
Jesus said, ''For God said...''
'And by this you invalidated the word of Godfor the sake of your tradition.'
Your answer then, is one of denial and evasion.
That is a terrible translation Mike and makes the next commandment thou shalt not kill of none effect.
Here is what the commandments state
Deuteronomy 5:16-17
16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 17 Thou shalt not kill.
Jesus was not saying the commandment says to put the child who does not honour their father and mother to death, for thou shalt not kill.
What the scribes and Pharisees were telling the people was that as long as the people supported their churches of that day, which was to support the scribes and Pharisees, that they did not have to support their fathers and mothers.
They did this so that they could heap riches unto themselves.
And because they wanted those riches they were telling the children who did not support their fathers and mothers was that they would notdie the death, but their days would be prolonged and all would go well for them.
What Jesus was pointing out to them was that what they taught the people was nothing but a lie, those who did not support their fathers and mothers would die the death and their days would not be prolonged and everything would not go well for them.
For honouring their father and mother was the first commandment with promise, and that promise was: that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
That is a terrible translation Mike and makes the next commandment thou shalt not kill of none effect.
Here is what the commandments state
Deuteronomy 5:16-17
16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 17 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 21:17 HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH
That is a terrible translation Mike and makes the next commandment thou shalt not kill of none effect.
Here is what the commandments state
Deuteronomy 5:16-17
16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 17 Thou shalt not kill.
Jesus was not saying the commandment says to put the child who does not honour their father and mother to death, for thou shalt not kill.
What the scribes and Pharisees were telling the people was that as long as the people supported their churches of that day, which was to support the scribes and Pharisees, that they did not have to support their fathers and mothers.
They did this so that they could heap riches unto themselves.
And because they wanted those riches they were telling the children who did not support their fathers and mothers was that they would notdie the death, but their days would be prolonged and all would go well for them.
What Jesus was pointing out to them was that what they taught the people was nothing but a lie, those who did not support their fathers and mothers would die the death and their days would not be prolonged and everything would not go well for them.
For honouring their father and mother was the first commandment with promise, and that promise was: that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Matthew 15:4 in the Greek transliteration.
Ho gar theos eipen tima ton patera kai tén metera kai ho kakologón patera é metera thanató teleutató
For God commanded honor the father and the mother and he who speaks evil of father or mother in death must die.
And by the way, 'must be put to death' - teleutató is in the Present Imperative Active. It's a command.
The New Greek English Interlinear New Testament UBS 4th edition, Nestle-Aland 26th edition translates it the last part of Matthew 15:4 as 'by death let him die'.
I will not go into the proper translation of Deut. 5:17 as it is not the topic.
Your answer to my question then is 'well, it's just a poor translation'. An excuse to avoid facing the truth.
Last edited by Michael Way; 02-20-2013 at 12:56 PM..
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