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Originally Posted by ShanaBrown So do you believe that Adam had the perfect divine holy nature of God when he was created, Stephen. If he did, how would he have disobeyed being that the perfect divine holy nature of God would have been in him? God does not sin and neither would Adam. So why would Adam make the choice to disobey? He would have had the perfect divine holy nature of God to not disobey.
Well, one could say that Adam had divine attributes I suppose. Those specific divine attributes being he was "eternal"(he didn't know death - nor was he subject to dying) He had autonomy(ability to choose between good and evil).
The only thing he didn't have the quality of omniscience like God did, but Adam was instilled with much knowledge of the world around him as well as with the Heavens. He was made keeper of the entire earth and named all of the animals, so I'm sure his knowledge and wisdom level was pretty high. The only thing he didn't have knowledge of was good and evil. So at the initial point within creation, I don't think he was inclined towards either side.
Thanks for sharing your view of this, Stephen. So you don't believe that Adam had all of the attributes of the divine holy nature and was therefore not perfect in this sense? You believe that he was not subject to dying, but he became subject to dying when he sinned? But is God able to die? Again, I believe that Adam was made in the image and likeness of God but I don't believe that he was fully complete in the image of God. He was made ruler, had some knowledge, but was lacking in many ways. I don't believe that he was a finished product. I believe that Adam was weak, limited, and ignorant of many things. He was soulish, earthy. Again, if Adam and Eve had full autonomy of independent free will, why were they able to be influenced by an outside element, the crafty serpent? Why was Even able to be deceived? Both Adam and Eve were influenced by the tempter and by the desires of their heart. Eve was drawn away by the desires of her own heart, enticed, and consequently sinned.
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I don't see where God defines Himself as being free from the bondage of sin, but I understand what you mean. He is described as holy and righteous. God would never be under the bondage of sin because He never sins or never misses the mark.
This is not meant to be offensive, but how can one think they are free from the bondage of sin, if they don't believe God is "sovereign" from it? I don't really understand your rationale regarding this one Shana. Here's a verse proving God's freedom
2 Samuel 7:18-22
Then King David went in and sat before the LORD, and he said:
"Who am I, O SovereignLORD, and what is my family, that you have brought me this far? 19 And as if this were not enough in your sight, O Sovereign LORD, you have also spoken about the future of the house of your servant. Is this your usual way of dealing with man, O Sovereign LORD ?
20 "What more can David say to you? For you know your servant, OSovereign LORD. 21 For the sake of your word and according to your will, you have done this great thing and made it known to your servant. 22 "How great you are, O Sovereign LORD! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.
I didn't state that I didn't believe that God is not sovereign from the bondage of sin, Stephen. I never stated that I do not believe that God is sovereign. This is one reason that I do not believe in complete free will. God's will is sovereign and not man's. I stated that I don't believe that God defines Himself as being free from the bondage of sin. He declares that He is righteous, holy and this tells me that He is free from any sin. He would not be subject to any bondage of sin because He never sins or misses the mark. The very fact that He is righteous, holy, and sinless me lets me know that He would never be under the bondage of sin. Yes, I do believe that God is sovereign from the bondage of sin because He never sins. Maybe I disagree with your choice of words but as I said, I understand what you mean and I agree. God is free from the bondage of sin because He is perfect, never sins, or misses the mark. See the difference?
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The entire them of the bible is primarily freedom from the bondage of sin and death through Christ's atonement sin sacrafrice. How can one even question God's freedom and still believe themselves to be free in Christ?
I never questioned God's freedom. Can you show me where I did? Please reread what I posted and do not change what I stated. I know that God is free from sin because He never sins. He is God.
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Me:
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I don't see where God defines Himself as being free from the bondage of sin, but I understand what you mean. He is described as holy and righteous. God would never be under the bondage of sin because He never sins or never misses the mark."
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Is this book included in the scriptures?
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It was initially included with the Torah I believe. Both Books of Adam and Eve are very exstensive regarding the History of what happened after the fall. The book of Enoch was also originally included within the Torah as well
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I think that many consider the book to be a book of fiction a part of the writings termed human wisdom. In my studies I go with the books included in the canon of what is thought of as the Christian scriptures.
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Thank you for sharing your view, Stephen. I respect your view and I hope that you respect mine. God bless.
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I respect your right to have an opinion, although it's a very incorrect and misleading one. God is free from the bondage of sin. Man was not initially instilled with a sinful nature, as He was created in the image of God, without a sinful nature. Through Christ and the indwelling of His Holy Spirit, we too become free from the sinful nature.
It may incorrect and misleading to you, Stephen, but many do not agree with you. I did not say that I believe that God is not free from the bondage of sin. I stated that I believe that God never sins and could never be under the bondage of sin. I do believe that Adam was created earthy, subject to weakness, having the desires of a carnal heart within his being or he would not have been tempted by those desires or able to be tempted by the tempter. Eve saw that the fruit was pleasant to the eyes, good for food, and able to make one wise in being like God as suggested to her by the tempter (all desires of the flesh) . If Adam had had had a perfect divine holy nature as you suggest, I don't believe that he would have ever made the wrong choice because the divine holy nature of God would have been in him just as it was in the Lord Jesus Christ. And Jesus never sinned, although he was tempted. He was in the bosom of the Father and revealed the Father to us. He knew the Father but I don't believe that Adam fully knew the Father or he would have never sinned against the Father. He would have known better. Adam was from the earth but Jesus was from heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:45-47
"So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul. The last Adam became a life giving spirit. However the spiritual is not first, but the natural, then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy, the second man is from heaven."
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-17-2008 at 12:44 PM..
Jesus was the exact representation of God's nature and the radiance of His glory (Hebrews 1:3). The fulness of God's spirit was in Jesus and so Jesus would never make the wrong choice. He and the Father were one and He knew the Father intimately. He always did what was pleasing to the Father...Did Adam have these qualities? God bless.
It's obvious to me that the garden was a setup. You have God putting everything in place and God making all the rules.
I believe that "Let us make man in our image" was referring to a process started in the garden and which will be fulfilled at the consummation of the ages when God will ultimately become "all in all".
Until then, I guess there will always be a group of people who think God is just doing 'damage control' for an experiment gone horribly wrong
It's obvious to me that the garden was a setup. You have God putting everything in place and God making all the rules.
I believe that "Let us make man in our image" was referring to a process started in the garden and which will be fulfilled at the consummation of the ages when God will ultimately become "all in all".
I totally agree
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Until then, I guess there will always be a group of people who think God is just doing 'damage control' for an experiment gone horribly wrong
It's obvious to me that the garden was a setup. You have God putting everything in place and God making all the rules.
I believe that "Let us make man in our image" was referring to a process started in the garden and which will be fulfilled at the consummation of the ages when God will ultimately become "all in all".
Until then, I guess there will always be a group of people who think God is just doing 'damage control' for an experiment gone horribly wrong
blessings,
- Byron
Let me clarify a bit my stance just in case it appears to be what you've mentioned above. Do I think God knew everything that was going to happen? Yes, of course being omnisicient he knew everything that was going to happen. But where I disagree with Shana, is that I think God's perfect plan was not brought about by giving man the inclination to "sin", but instead I think it was perfect in the fact that it allowed man a "choice."
I think man(as well as all of God's creations) had an equal "choice" between good and evil in the garden. I don't think there was an inclination one way or the other in his heart before the fall.
Giving man a choice does not mean that God tempted mankind, as God does not define himself as the tempter. In Shana insinuating that God created man with a sin nature, she is insinuating that the Holy Spirit in itself has a sin nature. We know this to be contrary to what is stated in scripture, as scripture states that God cannot be tempted by sin, nor does God tempt any man.
That being stated. Being that God is omniscient, I believe he had already set up the conditions to rectify the poor choice that he knew man would make. He had already prepared a savior for mankind through Christ Jesus.
I also think God in advance, looked at the situation before creating everything - and defined what Love is. I believe he defined love(or himself)as being something that involved "choice", which is why he allowed Adam to make a choice between good and evil, instead of forcefully imposing a decision to any of his creations to follow him.
Let me clarify a bit my stance just in case it appears to be what you've mentioned above. Do I think God knew everything that was going to happen? Yes, of course being omnisicient he knew everything that was going to happen. But where I disagree with Shana, is that I think God's perfect plan was not brought about by giving man the inclination to "sin", but instead I think it was perfect in the fact that it allowed man a "choice."
I think man(as well as all of God's creations) had an equal "choice" between good and evil in the garden. I don't think there was an inclination one way or the other in his heart before the fall.
Giving man a choice does not mean that God tempted mankind, as God does not define himself as the tempter. In Shana insinuating that God created man with a sin nature, she is insinuating that the Holy Spirit in itself has a sin nature. We know this to be contrary to what is stated in scripture, as scripture states that God cannot be tempted by sin, nor does God tempt any man.
That being stated. Being that God is omniscient, I believe he had already set up the conditions to rectify the poor choice that he knew man would make. He had already prepared a savior for mankind through Christ Jesus.
I also think God in advance, looked at the situation before creating everything - and defined what Love is. I believe he defined love(or himself)as being something that involved "choice", which is why he allowed Adam to make a choice between good and evil, instead of forcefully imposing a decision to any of his creations to follow him.
In Christ,
Stephen
I wonder what the following passage of Scripture means?
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For the creation was made subject to imperfection/futility/ slavery/ bondage not willingly but by reason of Him who so subjected it in hope. And the hope is that in the end the whole of created life shall be delivered...
Questions
1. What does "was made" mean to you?
2. What does "not willingly" or "not by any choice of its own" mean to you?"
For the creation was made subject to imperfection/futility/ slavery/ bondage not willinglybut by reason of Him who so subjected it in hope. And the hope is that in the end the whole of created life shall be delivered...
1 Corinthians 13:10
But when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
Matthew 5:48
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
God defines himself as perfection, thus inperfection is "sin." Subject means to be in authority over. So if you look at the entire context of the verse above, it's referring to God commanding that man be subject to sin(or Satan) based on his disobedience(willful) to God. This was done not by his own will, but by God's Will meaning that man could not reverse his decision to choose God again once his choice had already been made. Or as it is written:
When I act, who can reverse it? - God
Could God have reversed this action of man having to be subject to Satan due to man's disobedience? Of course. But in the perfection of his ultimate plan, he allowed Satan to have authority over man. Or as it is written:
Romans 5:17
For if, by the trespass of the one man, deathreigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
To trespass is to willingly disobey, choice is involved when one trespasses. Christ came into the world to give man a "choice" again, to be free and follow him - or to return to bondage/imperfection and follow sin. Or as it is written.
John 3:19
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
The light is Christ. We now have a choice to do what is right(righteous) again through our faith in him, as well as to live forever in righteousnous instead of follow the wages of sin and experience death.
Thus as stated before, God did not create men with a sinful nature, as he himself doesn't have a sinful nature and created man in his own image as referenced in Genesis 1:27 - or specifically with an ability to choose between good and evil. Man chose evil instead of good. This answers all of your questions.
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For the creation was made subject to imperfection/futility/ slavery/ bondage not willingly but by reason of Him who so subjected it in hope. And the hope is that in the end the whole of created life shall be delivered... Questions
1. What does "was made" mean to you?
2. What does "not willingly" or "not by any choice of its own" mean to you?"
Definitely, Birdy. God Himself who sees beginning to end, subjected the creation to futility in expectation that the creation/creature will be delivered. He knew exactly what would happen before He created in His omniscience and thus brought it all into existence, everything that happened. He knew what would tempt and influence Adam and Eve to be disobedient and did not stop it from happening, and I believe for a glorious purpose. I believe that if He saw what would happen and brought it into existence then He meant for it to happen. Thanks for sharing and God bless.
"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to/in us. For the anzious longing of the creation/creature waits eagerlyf of the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility not of its own will, but because of HIm who subjected it in hope/expectation that the creation/creature itself will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the chiidren of God. For we know that the whole creation groas and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now..."
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-18-2008 at 05:04 PM..
Definitely, Birdy. God Himself who sees beginning to end, subjected the creation to futility in expectation that the creation/creature will be delivered. He knew exactly what would happen before He created in His omniscience and thus brought it all into existence, everything that happened. He knew what would tempt and influence Adam to be disobedient and did not stop it from happening, and I believe for a glorious purpose. I believe that if He saw what would happen and brought it into existence then He meant for it to happen. Thanks for sharing and God bless.
I didn't know you two were closet Calvinists.
Birdy: What version did you get that scripture from? It's so "lip stick'd" up I almost didn't recognize it as Romans 8:20!
A few other versions for reference sake
Amp
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20For the creation (nature) was subjected to ‡9 frailty (to futility, condemned to frustration), not because of some intentional fault on its part, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it--[yet] with the hope
NIV:
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
Young:
for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject [it] -- in hope,
ASV:
For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope
What is a closet Calvinist? Doesn't a Calvinist believe that God has ordained some to eternal life and others to eternal hell? I don't believe this! I have also always shared that I do not believe in free will and that I believe in the sovereignty of God. I believe that God works all things according to the counsel of His will God bless.
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I never stated that I do not believe that God is sovereign. This is one reason that I do not believe in complete free will. God's will is sovereign and not man's. I stated that I don't believe that God defines Himself as being free from the bondage of sin. He declares that He is righteous, holy and this tells me that He is free from any sin. He would not be subject to any bondage of sin because He never sins or misses the mark. The very fact that He is righteous, holy, and sinless me lets me know that He would never be under the bondage of sin. Yes, I do believe that God is sovereign from the bondage of sin because He never sins. Maybe I disagree with your choice of words but as I said, I understand what you mean and I agree. God is free from the bondage of sin because He is perfect, never sins, or misses the mark. See the difference? 
