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View Poll Results: Is acceptance of the formalized doctrine of The Holy Trinity a prerequisite for salvation?
Yes 4 21.05%
No 13 68.42%
Maybe 1 5.26%
No Idea 1 5.26%
Voters: 19. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-29-2013, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Whereever we have our RV parked
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Twin, what you just posted is good and correct. However the Bible also discusses the Father as the source. Jesus is begotten of the Father. Jesus only speaks the words that the Father has given HIm to say. The Father sends the Holy Spirit, but also the son sends the Holy Spirit. So we always remember that our best efforts, in our human physical weakness and corrupted sinful nature will not be able to to explain God who is Spirit and infinite, Holy and Good.
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Old 06-29-2013, 03:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by augiedogie View Post
Twin, what you just posted is good and correct. However the Bible also discusses the Father as the source. Jesus is begotten of the Father. Jesus only speaks the words that the Father has given HIm to say. The Father sends the Holy Spirit, but also the son sends the Holy Spirit. So we always remember that our best efforts, in our human physical weakness and corrupted sinful nature will not be able to to explain God who is Spirit and infinite, Holy and Good.
The two are One in Spirit.
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Old 06-29-2013, 03:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The equilateral triangle or the so called three persons of the Trinity, existed within the god of the Babylonians amongst others; but not that of true Christianity or following Christ. At least NOT, until it was blended or mixed into it in an attempt to create a unified body with three-heads; reconciling all the various belief systems (B.S.) of the polytheistic religions. Including, that of Egypt!

"How they serve and worship their gods, so shall we?"
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

The concept of the Trinity did not come from Judaism; a monotheistic religion. But can be summed up in the words of Pope Gregory:

"You must not interfere with any traditional belief or religious observance that can be harmonized with Christianity."

For the most part, all Christianity follows that of Christian-Paganism through the so called Emperors and hierarchy of the worldly Church.

Whether, you are aware of it, or not.
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Old 06-29-2013, 03:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The two are One in Spirit.
I would venture to say:

"There have been more death's over the doctrine of the Trinity, than any other aspect of Religion."

Just look at the "us" and "them" mentality of the posters' on this forum alone (in other threads).
Christians have murdered Christians, all in the name of their triune god throughout it's history.

Talk about having a loving spirit?
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Old 06-29-2013, 04:53 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by augiedogie View Post
Twin, what you just posted is good and correct. However the Bible also discusses the Father as the source. Jesus is begotten of the Father. Jesus only speaks the words that the Father has given HIm to say. The Father sends the Holy Spirit, but also the son sends the Holy Spirit. So we always remember that our best efforts, in our human physical weakness and corrupted sinful nature will not be able to to explain God who is Spirit and infinite, Holy and Good.
I understand that .. and for the most part most even the non-Christian people here generally recognizes that the Father is God, which is why I don't dwell on that aspect of the Trinity.
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Old 06-29-2013, 10:05 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
The Trinity is who God is .... and that is the God who saves
My contention is simple:
A.) God is a lot more merciful than most Christians assume that He is.
B.) The description of God in the Old and New Testaments is nowhere near as specific as the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds are.

Quote:
[indent]
I'm familiar with this object -- went ahead and got you a bigger, clearer copy too. It is an excellnt tool for teaching the Trinity.

And yet, without explanation it unwittingly agrees with Arianism, Modalism/Sabellism, Tri-theism, Miaphysitism, Monophysitism, Nestorianism, Eutychianism, Marcionism, Dualism adherents could all look at the Trinity Shield and see their own belief set represented in it ... and yet all such beliefs were condemned as heresy over 1000 years ago (most more than 1500 years ago.)

Even some Binitarianists could agree with the Trinity Shield. Since they hold that the Holy Spirit is the living power of God, then the image could still be made to fit their beliefs. It is possible that with a little creative effort, Jehovah's Witnesses' pseudo-Binitarianism could be made to fit as well.

To a Latter Day Saint (Mormon), The Trinity Shield would accurately represent their believe in the Godhead doctrine. No need to even twist and turn it.

I think that Trinity Shield does successfully exclude Unitarianism.

One of the most interesting things: The Holy Trinity doctrine seems to have developed over a 500 year period based upon the Church saying what God isn't and not what God is -- with Ecumenical Councils (aka several hundred arguing Bishops) being the final judge between truth and heresy. Every time a new theory on the nature of God arose, it was either added to the Trinity or it was condemned as heresy. Interestingly enough, nearly 100 million Oriental/Eastern Christians subscribe to one of the ancient "heresies" that the Church denounced long ago: Miaphysitism.

(I will respond to the other half of your post soon.)
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Old 06-29-2013, 10:12 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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(continued response.) Underlying problem is ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
2 Samuel 22:32
For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

2 Samuel 22:47
“The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!
Jesus (the Son) being called God:
1 Corinthians 10:1-4 our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed
through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from
the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

--- and as for the Holy Spirit being God
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Malachi 2:15 Has not the one God made you?

Acts 5:3-4 Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit ... You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”


and as others pointed out many times before:

All three Persons are associated together on an equal basis in numerous passages:

Jesus' baptism—Matthew 3:13-17 (voice of the Father, Son baptized, Spirit descending like a dove).

Salvation—1 Peter 1:2 (chosen by the Father, sanctified by the Spirit, sprinkled with the blood of Jesus).

Sanctification—2 Corinthians 13:14 (grace of the Lord Jesus, love of God, fellowship of the Holy Spirit).

Christian Baptism—Matthew 28:19 (baptized in one name, yet three Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

Prayer—Ephesians 3:14-21 (strengthened by his Spirit, know the love of Christ, filled with the fullness of God).

Christian Growth—2 Thessalonians 2:13 (chosen by God, loved by the Lord, sanctified by the Spirit).
The reason for the difference between those who do and those who do not is:
Romans 8:14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

1 Corinthian 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
^^^ THIS ^^^

DOES NOT SAY

THIS:

Quote:
ATHANASIAN CREED:
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
I have something quite pressing so my more detailed explanation will have to wait. More to come.
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Old 06-30-2013, 12:03 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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Twin.Spin I'm very puzzled.

1.) You seem to be saing that this statement: "The Trinity is who God is .... and that is the God who saves" is found in these verses:
"2 Samuel 22:32 - For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?
2 Samuel 22:47 - "The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!"


These passages say absolutely nothing about a Triune God. Virtually all non-Trinitarians look to God/Christ for salvation. Nothing here would point them towards the formalized doctrine of the Trinity.

2.) You are telling me that this statement: "Jesus (the Son) being called God:" is found in this verse:
1 Corinthians 10:1-4 "our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."

I actually wholeheartedly believe that Jesus is God ... but that is not what this verse says.

3.) You are telling me that this statement "--- and as for the Holy Spirit being God" is found in these passages:
Job 33:4 "The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Malachi 2:15 "Has not the one God made you?"
Acts 5:3-4 "Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit ... You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”


Again, even though I completely agree with you, these verses do not say "The Holy Spirit is God." Insofar as I am aware, there is no passage of scripture anywhere that specifically says, "The Holy Spirit is God."

4.) You are saying that all of the following tell us that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equals:
Jesus' baptism—Matthew 3:13-17 (voice of the Father, Son baptized, Spirit descending like a dove).
Salvation—1 Peter 1:2 (chosen by the Father, sanctified by the Spirit, sprinkled with the blood of Jesus).
Sanctification—2 Corinthians 13:14 (grace of the Lord Jesus, love of God, fellowship of the Holy Spirit).
Christian Baptism—Matthew 28:19 (baptized in one name, yet three Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).
Prayer—Ephesians 3:14-21 (strengthened by his Spirit, know the love of Christ, filled with the fullness of God).
Christian Growth—2 Thessalonians 2:13 (chosen by God, loved by the Lord, sanctified by the Spirit).


Sorry but none of those passages say anything remotely similar to that. Once again, I tend to agree with the statement, but there is no passage of scripture that specifically says, "The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are all equals."

5.) And you close with this extremely condescending tidbit: "The reason for the difference between those who do and those who do not is:"
Romans 8:14 "For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God."
1 Corinthian 2:14 "The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

I have seen Trinitarians who were alive inside with the Spirit of God. I have seen non-Trinitarians who were also alive inside with the Spirit of God. It is the same Spirit. I do not accept that God will cast either group into hell for failing to accept post-Biblical creeds because I've seen God work in and through both.

Rather than chopping at the branches of the issue, let's cut to the heart of things. Find me passages of scripture that explicitly say each of the following:

1.) "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the universal faith."
2.) "That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity"
3.) "Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence."
4.) "For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost."
5.) "But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one"
6.) "the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal."
7.) "The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated."
8.) "The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited."
9.) "The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal."
10.) "And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal."
11.) "As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite."
12.) "So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty."
13.) "And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty."
14.) "So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God."
15.) "So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God."
16.) "So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord."
17.) "For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord"
18.) "So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords."
19.) "The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten."
20.) "The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding."
21.) "So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts."
22.) " And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal."
23.) "So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity."
24.) "Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ."
25.) "For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world."
26.) "Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting."
27.) "Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood."
28.) "One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God."
29.) "One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. "
31.) "For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; "
32.) "Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead."
33.) "He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead. "
34.) " And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire."
35.) "This is the universal faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."


And that list even gives you several easy ones. But in comes down to this: You and others are essentially saying that a person must completely and absolutely accept every single one of those 35 points in order to be saved. "If you do not believe all of this about God, then you worship a false god that cannot save you and you will burn in hell for all eternity." That is a very bold statement!! I'm saying the burden of proof falls on you and anyone making such a claim. If the eternal salvation of even one human soul is at stake here, then nothing could be more important and it behooves you and yours to demonstrate that Christ Jesus and his apostles taught all of that.

Like I already said, I'm not seeing it when I read the Bible. All but two or three items on the list are extremely debatable. Most of it cannot be found anywhere in the Bible. So why is it absolute?

If you cannot demonstrate that the Bible explicitly, definitively and clearly teaches every single point, then the conclusion is obvious:
Trinitarians damning others to hell for not accepting the full and formalized doctrine of the Trinity believes that Ecumenical Councils > The Bible. Whether they are willing to admit it or not is irrelevant. If they did not believe it, they would not tell anyone they are damned for their failure to accept the Trinity.
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Old 06-30-2013, 12:22 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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Originally Posted by TylerJAX View Post
The books of the New Testament weren't necessarily written as in-depth exposes on doctrine. They were just a collection of early Christian writings that were accepted as being "canonical." Some were intended as biographies, others were pastoral epistles, and others as works of consolation encouraging fortitude in the face of persecution. Many questions concerning the nature of Christ, salvation, and the constitution of the Divine were still up in the air during the early years of Christianity. It wasn't until Constantine that Christian bishops were able to get together and able to make authoritative proclamations concerning doctrine.
Thanks for the honest answer. You are quite right of course. The scriptures are not in-depth exposés on doctrine. The Church was massively divided over questions about the nature of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There were countless other unanswered questions.

The validity of The Holy Trinity rests almost entirely upon the backs of Ecumenical Councils. So ultimately, one must establish that an Ecumenical Council actually has authority from God.

This creates a big problem actually. For Protestants, Sola Scriptura just got tossed out the window entirely. They must admit that they accept the authority of at least some Ecumenical Councils. Without the Councils, the Trinity cannot be absolute.

But even Catholics do not accept all of their own Ecumenical Councils as valid. To add to that, Oriental Orthodox, The Eastern Church, Eastern Orthodox, the Armenian Apostolic Church and others have all convened their own Ecumenical Councils since parting ways with the Roman Church. Since the RCC rejects the validity of all of them, the RCC adds a huge pile of additional invalidated councils to their own list. So ... if even one Ecumenical Council is invalid, why accept any of them? Is there a formula for determining if God authorized any of them?
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Old 06-30-2013, 05:56 AM
 
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'isms...from the least to the greatest, one must work a work worthy of acceptation. As for The One True
G-d whom I serve willingly without coercion...any work beyond simple belief in Yeshua is deemed unworthy by Him.
Only one work will G-d accept from any man as righteous...believe in Yeshua Messiac!
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