Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Not only is the doctrine of "eternal security" gotten by cherry picking scripture and disregarding clear scripture to the contrary such as Hebrews 10:26, but it doesn't even provide security since people say that clearly the one who rejects God after salvation was never really saved.......but they were convinced that they were.
I don't see what the failure of what we try to accomplish to actually come to fruition has to do with "eternal security." I and others have acknowledged that works are not a requirement for salvation, but that any person who is not "eager to do good works" needs to examine his commitment. There is no situation I can imagine short of solitary confinement with automated care so that there is no contact with that person with another in any way that a believer could not do good works. Why insist on a fruitless doctrine without that reminder when it can only dampen the anticipated joy of casting your "crowns" at Jesus' feet?
If you wish to call making reference to those verses which deal with the eternal security of the believer 'cherry picking', that's your business. Biblical doctrines are arrived at by comparing all passages which are pertinent to a particular subject. I have already shown in post #74 that salvation is a gift, and that the gifts of God are irrevocable.
Romans 8:39 says that there is no created thing which can separate the believer from the love of God. That includes the believer himself. You cannot walk away from your salvation.
The believer is sealed to the day of redemption.
The believer has been credited with the perfect righteousness of God and so his own righteousness is not an issue.
All sin has been paid for at the Cross and so sin is not an issue in salvation. You cannot lose your salvation because of sin.
If the believer is faithless, Jesus remains faithful (2 Tim. 2:13) which is part of a passage which also deals with rewards.
The believer has been entered into an unbreakable union with Christ. He is positionally in Christ and cannot lose that position.
There's more, but I am not going to take the time to go into it.
There is no passage which states that the believer can lose his salvation including Hebrews 10:26 and following which deals with divine discipline for the believer. It refers to temporal punishment, not eternal condemation. Hebrews 10:26 as does Hebrews 6:1-6 deals with believers who were in danger of going back into Judaism as a result of pressure from the Judaizers. That would have involved resuming animal sacrifices which were only a shadow of the reality which came with Christ's crucifixion on the Cross. These believers were at risk from the Judaizers of losing their grace orientation. Not their salvation. To go back to practicing animal sacrifice after Jesus had already gone to the Cross was tantamount to recrucifying Jesus. And this was deserving of divine discipline.
<snip>
Hypothetical situations are irrelevent.
<snip>
The story of the Good Samaritan was hypothetical or perhaps you turn every story of Jesus into an event He witnessed? He used parables to impart the Truth of God.
And apparently you reject the words of Jesus, I quoted--
Then his lord, after he had called him, said unto him, "O thou wicked servantI forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on the?' And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
SO LIKEWISE SHALL MY HEAVENLY FATHER DO ALSO UNTO YOU, IF YE FROM YOUR HEARTS FORGIVE NOT EVERY ONE HIS BROTHER THEIR TRESPASSES.
---in order to glorify Jesus' servant, Paul.
Salvation by God is free, but it cost God much. What cost God much cannot cost us nothing. You represent the church of today that preaches "come get saved and then sit on your pew and wait until you die." There are no consequences for not following the commands or the example of Jesus. The road now taken is paved with gold and glory.
How much does that sound like the Pharisees of Jesus' day? It sounds EXACTLY like them, because that is what they taught. Accept the faith that we teach, and practice the selfishness, the self righteousness, the self indulgence we practice because we are all going to heaven together. There is no cross to bear, Jesus bore it so that we could daily forgive ourselves for our refusal to be servants to our brothers and sisters. If we happen to be magnaminous and now and then do some deed for the poor, we pat ourselves on the backs.
We ignore Christ's words to do our works in silence, with the left hand not knowing what the right has done.
I read the scripture and analyze every single verse in light of the words and life of Jesus. Where they do not mesh, or are confusing, I choose Jesus, because He is the One I trusted for my salvation--not Paul, not Peter, not the score of writers of the Old Testament. Everything should be about following Jesus.
John 15: 10-16 NIV If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you DO what I command. I no longer call you servants because a servant doesn't know his master's business. Instead, I have callled you friends, for everything I learned from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. THEN, the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
So, according to Jesus how do we remain friends with him? It's if we DO what He commands. Faith and works go hand in hand. He tells us to bear fruit!! He chose us, but He chose us to bear fruit. Whether you see that as winning souls to Christ, or reaching out to help the hungry, the sick, the impoverished, there remains an element of DOING in being a friend of Jesus and a child of God.
You aren't debating me, Mike. You are debating with the words of the One you claim as Savior. Either DO what He commands and be called His friend, or ignore those works He asks of us at YOUR peril.
And yes, every day I pray that God will send me an opportunity to reach out and touch someone, someway that will reflect His love without me being preachy in the process. God created the world--all the world--and although much of it has been misused to not glorify God, it is still His world, and His command is to witness to it and be a servant to those in it---not a servant just to those who are deserving, but a servant to the underserving as well. Because each of us is just as undeserving in His eyes.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 07-12-2013 at 03:49 PM..
Reason: spelling
Wrong. He accomplished the salvation from eternal separation from God for our entire species. His death and rebirth of His human consciousness as Spirit is what made His Holy Spirit (Comforter) available to all human consciousnesses. We need to accept His inner guidance to what God has "written in our hearts" and follow Christ's commands to "love God and each other daily and repent when we don't. This is what harmonizes us with His love for us all and we receive the free gift of His perfect grace as cover for our imperfections. You are free to think that all you have to do is believe what you think are the "right" things about Christ . . . but I will rely on what Jesus told His disciples to do.
No. That is why repentance is so important in this life. Anything that is not repented of will be "refined" out as dross in the consuming fire of God's pure love after our death and rebirth as Spirit . . . but we are saved as by fire because of the grace of Christ.
If salvation was accomplished (past tense), why is anything necessary (including works and repentence)?
The story of the Good Samaritan was hypothetical or perhaps you turn every story of Jesus into an event He witnessed? He used parables to impart the Truth of God.
And apparently you reject the words of Jesus, I quoted--
Then his lord, after he had called him, said unto him, "O thou wicked servantI forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on the?' And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, tell he should pay all that was due unto him.
SO LIKEWISE SHALL MY HEAVENLY FATHER DO ALSO UNTO YOU, IF YE FROM YOUR HEARTS FORGIVE NOT EVERY ONE HIS BROTHER THEIR TRESPASSES.
---in order to glorify Jesus' servant, Paul.
You represent the church of today that preaches "come get saved and then sit on your pew and wait until you die."
In which of these statements did you get the impression that I advocate what you claim? Namely - 'come get saved and then sit on your pew and wait until you die.'
Post #79 'The believer should be motivated to produce good works as a result of having been saved, but works are never the means of being saved.'
Post #82 'Again, works belong to the spiritual life after salvation. They have nothing at all to do with becoming saved. The believer will be rewarded for his works of 'gold, silver, and precious stones'. The works of the believer that are 'wood, hay, and straw' will be burned up, but the believer himself is saved (1 Corinthians 3:12-15).'
Post #86 'Before you can obey Christ with a productive spiritual life you must first obey the gospel message by believing on Christ. Eternal salvation comes first, and the believer can then have a productive spiritual life. But if he doesn't have a productive spiritual life it does not mean that he was never saved in the first place.'
Post #95 'The believer should be motivated to produce good works out of love for God.'
Post #95 'And for the benefit of those who are slow to understand, no one is suggesting that a believer should not be motivated to do good works.'
Post #105 'You cannot follow Christ until you have first been saved.'
You have not understood one word of what I have said.
Quote:
I read the scripture and analyze every single verse in light of the words and life of Jesus. Where they do not mesh, or are confusing, I choose Jesus, because He is the One I trusted for my salvation--not Paul, not Peter, not the score of writers of the Old Testament. Everything should be about following Jesus.
You reject Paul because you do not know how to properly divide the word of God. You have accused him of perverting the gospel. The epistles of Paul are just as much the word of God as anything that Jesus said during His first advent.
Quote:
You aren't debating me, Mike. You are debating with the words of the One you claim as Savior. Either DO what He commands and be called His friend, or ignore those works He asks of us at YOUR peril.
I am telling you that to the extent that you reject the writings of Paul you are also rejecting the word of God. Jesus had much more to say to the apostles, but could not say it at the time because they could not bear it. And so Jesus told them that after He departed, the Holy Spirit would come and guide them unto all the truth.
John 16:12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13] "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14] "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15] "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
And while Paul wasn't among the original disciples, what Jesus said to them applies just as much to Paul who was appointed by Jesus to give the gospel to the Gentiles.
Acts 16:15 "And I said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16] 'But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you; 17] rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, 18] to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'
And do you claim that Paul advocated not having works?
1 Cor. 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.
Gotta love the character assassination to try and make a point...
Focus on what God did - which is rescue Lot without his input.
I think many of you have lost sight of what God's role is in salvation and His character in carrying out His promise.
I don't have time to pick apart every single passage that comes up, etc, but the point is very simple: If salvation was one-and-done permanent irrevocable thing, I think God would have said so in pretty explicit terms. He didn't. Every passage that you can use to establish that point of view is not definitively saying that. And on top of that, other passages of scripture contradict that point of view.
At no point did God promise that salvation with no effort on our part. The very act of praying to God and asking to be born of God -- that is works. It takes effort.
I think it does get a little silly. Those that focus on grace and downplay works vs those that focus on works and downplay grace. Ultimately, we agree on the end product. We're all on the same page that the grace of God is what saves us. We all agree that a person reborn of God does good works. The debate tends to devolve into a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" scenario. The man of God has both salvation through grace as well as works. But which comes first? Does salvation come before the works or after works? Does it ultimately matter so much?
There is no passage which states that the believer can lose his salvation including Hebrews 10:26 and following which deals with divine discipline for the believer. It refers to temporal punishment, not eternal condemation. Hebrews 10:26 as does Hebrews 6:1-6 deals with believers who were in danger of going back into Judaism as a result of pressure from the Judaizers. That would have involved resuming animal sacrifices which were only a shadow of the reality which came with Christ's crucifixion on the Cross. These believers were at risk from the Judaizers of losing their grace orientation. Not their salvation. To go back to practicing animal sacrifice after Jesus had already gone to the Cross was tantamount to recrucifying Jesus. And this was deserving of divine discipline.
That is a rationalization and NOT what it says or anything like the context of the verses which was simply that we should encourage each other in our walks (spur each other to good works). It has nothing to do with returning to Jewish practices, but of deliberately continuing in sin after having received Christ, that Christ sacrificed for us and spurning that leaves no more sacrifice for our sin. But you will have your man-made doctrine.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Assumptions?
