Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Resorting to comments such as this merely indicates that you cannot, or at least are unwilling to objectively address the things I have said regarding the believer's eternal security.
You are upset because I said that by saying that the believer can lose his salvation it makes God out to be a liar.
Why do you say that the free gift of eternal life can be revoked when God has plainly stated in His Word that His calling and gifts are irrevocable? And why do you think that it is not making God out to be a liar to claim that God can revoke eternal life which is a free gift, when He has said that He doesn't revoke His gifts?
Mike, your theology has been shown to be dead wrong many ways by several people. You resort to inflammatory rhetoric because you are unable to convince by your patently cherry picked and rationalized "explanations." You are better than that. It is not too late for you to hear the voice of the Spirit.
In all seriousness (was just trying to be light hearted with pics) ...
If the reformed theorem is true, there is no reason for Jesus to say the word "remain",
....or for God to inspire the writers of the NT disciples to use the word "remain"
... or for the inspired Word of God to specifically have written
Hebrews 3:14
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmlytotheveryend.
Hebrews 6:11
We want each of you to show this same diligence totheveryend, so that what you hope for may be fully realized.
I say again, HOW HAS BEING AN OSAS BELIEVER HELPED ANYONE LIVE MORE CLOSELY TO GOD?
The desire to be closer to God and to serve Him comes from the Holy Spirit. It is a DESIRE, because you want to do it our of your own free will. You serve God out of fear of losing your salvation, and I think that is something which should prompt you to examine your faith.
Anyone, OSAS or not, who lacks the Spirit driven desire to be closer to God might want to examine their faith.
What does this tell you: "Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver"
Can fear make you into a joyful giver? I doubt it, because your motive to give is driven by the fact that you are afraid that God will punish you if you don't give.
The desire to be closer to God and to serve Him comes from the Holy Spirit. It is a DESIRE, because you want to do it our of your own free will. You serve God out of fear of losing your salvation, and I think that is something which should prompt you to examine your faith.
Anyone, OSAS or not, who lacks the Spirit driven desire to be closer to God might want to examine their faith.
What does this tell you: "Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver"
Can fear make you into a joyful giver? I doubt it, because your motive to give is driven by the fact that you are afraid that God will punish you if you don't give.
I agree that desire to serve comes from the Holy Spirit. But if you fail to fear the Lord your God, then you deny His words as in:
Deut. 4: 10b
"Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children."
Gen. 42:18
"And Joseph said to unto them the third day, This do, and live; for I fear God:"
Deut 6: 24
"And the Lord commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive----"
Proverbs 3:7
"Be not wise in thine own eyes; fear the Lord, and depart from evil."
Psalm 33:8
"Let all the earth fear the Lord; let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him."
Psalm 34:9
"O fear the Lord, ye his saints: for there is no want to them the that fear him."
Matt 1O:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luke 23: 39-40
"And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, if thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?"
Romans 11:20-21
"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."
I Tim 5:20
"Them that sin, rebuke before all, that others may also fear."
Heb 4:1 "Let us therefore fear, lest a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."
I Pet 2:17
"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king."
A healthy fear is a good thing, and all of us would do well to embrace it, serving our Lord as faithful servants would do. Strong in our faith, obedient with our good works, embracing the whole of the gospel so that then we can hear Him say,
Luke 12: 31-37
But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. Fear not little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell that ye have, and give alms: provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; And ye, yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh, and knocketh they may open unto him immediately. Blessed are those servants whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching; verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth to serve them.
Fear the Lord your God, and serve Him humbly. Obey His commandments. Be ever on watch so that you may minister to Him when He is disguised as one unlovable to the world.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 08-10-2013 at 05:47 AM..
Reason: spelling
Mike, you have been too long under your masters who are only in the game for the sake of their bellies. Come out, gain your own understanding before you become just like them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Resorting to comments such as this merely indicates that you cannot, or at least are unwilling to objectively address the things I have said regarding the believer's eternal security.
You are upset because I said that by saying that the believer can lose his salvation it makes God out to be a liar.
Why do you say that the free gift of eternal life can be revoked when God has plainly stated in His Word that His calling and gifts are irrevocable? And why do you think that it is not making God out to be a liar to claim that God can revoke eternal life which is a free gift, when He has said that He doesn't revoke His gifts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
Mike, your theology has been shown to be dead wrong many ways by several people. You resort to inflammatory rhetoric because you are unable to convince by your patently cherry picked and rationalized "explanations." You are better than that. It is not too late for you to hear the voice of the Spirit.
The 'inflammatory rhetoric' to which you refer is my comment that it makes God out to be a liar when it is said that salvation can be lost when God has said that salvation is a free gift and that He has also said that His gifts are irrevocable.
I asked you to explain why you feel that it is not making God out to be a liar when you say that salvation can be lost when God has said that salvation is a free gift and that His gifts are irrevocable. Instead of answering, you evaded the question and instead accuse me of making inflammatory remarks. This merely further shows that you are unable to provide an honest answer and cannot be objective about the subject of eternal security. And this is how threads degenerate into insults and personal attacks.
And no, I have not been shown to be wrong. But the Word of God shows that the legalism you promote is wrong.
Last edited by Michael Way; 08-10-2013 at 07:10 AM..
None of the verses above say you should fear God taking away your salvation
Heb 4:1 "Let us therefore fear, lest a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."
You either enter into His rest or you do not. And how can you come up short if you never received a promise?
International Standard Version
Therefore, as long as the promise of entering his rest remains valid, let us be afraid! Otherwise, some of you will fail to reach it,
NET Bible
Therefore we must be wary that, while the promise of entering his rest remains open, none of you may seem to have come short of it.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Let us fear, therefore, lest, while The Promise of entering into his rest stands, any of you should be found to come short of entering.
King James 2000 Bible
Let us therefore fear, lest, although a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
American King James Version
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
And lest you be tempted to suggest this was not written to Christians:
Quote:
The author of Hebrews does not name himself. Paul has been suggested as the author by some scholars, but the true author remains anonymous.
Date Written:
Hebrews was written before the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.
Written To:
Hebrew Christians who were wavering in their faith and all future readers of the Bible.
The sermon that is the book of Hebrews urged the first readers to stay true to Christ and not return to Judaism. Part of the power of the sermon is that it still speaks words of encouragement. The message of Hebrews is still a call to persevere under pressure. That message is just as pertinent today as it ever was.
Heb 4:1 "Let us therefore fear, lest a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."
You either enter into His rest or you do not. And how can you come up short if you never received a promise?
International Standard Version
Therefore, as long as the promise of entering his rest remains valid, let us be afraid! Otherwise, some of you will fail to reach it,
NET Bible
Therefore we must be wary that, while the promise of entering his rest remains open, none of you may seem to have come short of it.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Let us fear, therefore, lest, while The Promise of entering into his rest stands, any of you should be found to come short of entering.
King James 2000 Bible
Let us therefore fear, lest, although a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
American King James Version
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
And lest you be tempted to suggest this was not written to Christians:
None of that says salvation can be taken away after it has been given to you. The only way to fall short is rejecting salvation in the first place.
Let's see, the words were written to Christians. Are Christians ones who have salvation eternally? No need to be concerned about obedience to make their way to heaven? Yes, I think you say.
Then why would the author of Hebrews try to make any Christian think he would come short of that promise? Just empty words?
No, you must do what other OSAS'ers do, begin to make explanations about the words and what they really mean, because inerrancy is really about a certain group's theories with regard to the actual words.
True Christians believe ALL the words. You must have Faith. You must have Works that show you have Faith. And you must Persevere. No explanations needed to soften Jesus' words about obedience or explanations about what James was really writing about.
For the most part, OSAS'ers haven't done any critical thinking of their own. They simply have accepted a false theology that is rampant in churches today. Finding God is a lifelong process that is finished when you have fought the good fight and run the race to the finish---oh, I know, Paul didn't really mean that with His words either. The words of the Scripture that are upheld to be inerrant, are unable to stand up on their own and mean what they say. They need help from junior theologians everywhere to be "explained" to people.
I don't hold with inerrancy of the words, but I think they plainly mean what they say, and were written that way so that on judgment day, none of us can stand before God and cry, "But I thought you meant----"
None of that says salvation can be taken away after it has been given to you. The only way to fall short is rejecting salvation in the first place.
Finn,
Honestly, are we are to understand that the writer of Hebrews knowingly wrote to people who rejected salvation in the first place ? ... or any book of the Bible for that matter?
In your theorum ... when Jesus said "someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy.", is that the same as rejecting salvation in the first place?
Last edited by twin.spin; 08-10-2013 at 08:50 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Then this verse is not true
