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Since people keep bringing up Hebrews 6:4-6 to argue that a believer can lose his salvation, I will repost posts #9 and 94 which disproves that claim.
And by the way, since you think that Hebrews 6:4-6 teaches that you can lose your salvation, if you are going to be consistent with your belief then you must also believe that that passage says that once the believer has lost his salvation he can never be saved again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
The verses which people use as proof texts to show that salvation can be lost are misunderstood by them. Hebrews 6:4-6 is a favorite.
However, if Hebrews 6:4-6 were stating that salvation could be lost then the phrase about it being impossible to renew them again to repentance would be saying that once salvation is lost you can not be saved again. And sadly, there are people who actually think that that is what it is saying.
But that passage is actually referring to Jewish believers who were being pressured by the Judaizers (often family members and friends) to go back into the practices of Judaism, including animal sacrifices. This would be tantamount to crucifying to themselves the Son of God who had already gone to the cross. To give in to the pressure of the Judaizers would mean that they had fallen away not from salvation, but from their grace orientation and into legalism. The writer of Hebrews is exhorting his readers to press on to spiritual maturity and not fall away from what they have been taught. If you go back to Hebrews 5:11 you can see that the context concerns those who have become dull of hearing and in need of being retaught the elementary principles of the word of God. And yet the writer urges his readers to press on to maturity and not lay again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. Believers who have been oriented to grace teaching but become legalistic usually remain that way and it is generally impossible to renew them to repentance - to a change of mind regarding their legalism. There is no warning about the possibility of loss of salvation in this passage.
I will address the other passages you mentioned in another post. It's late right now and I'm not going to take the time at the moment to address them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Some people keep asking about Hebrews 6:4-6. That passage has already been explained in post #9.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
And post 11 showed that the "explanation" was totally spurious.
[quote=Mike555;30890701]On the contrary. The poster in post #11 tried to prove with the use of Galatians 5:4 that falling from grace means losing your salvation. But as explained in post #16, Galatians 5:4 shows that falling from grace means to fall into legalism. It means to fall from a grace way of thinking into a legalistic way of thinking. And that was what the writer of Hebrews was warning his readers against in Hebrew 6:4-6.
Jewish Christians were being influenced and pressured by the Judaizers who were teaching that you could not be saved unless you were circumcised (See Acts 15:1). Even the apostle Peter had for a while been influenced by the Judaizers and was rebuked by the apostle Paul as a result (See Gal. 2:11-14).
Galatians 5:4 was addressing this same issue. The Galatians were being bothered by the Judaizers to undergo circumcision (See Galatians 5:12). As a result, Paul expressed his desire that the Judaizers would go the whole way and castrate themselves (Galatians 5:12).
In Galatians 5:4, the Galatians who were seeking to be justified by the Law by being circumcised had fallen from grace and into legalism. The reference to being severed or alienated from Christ does not refer to a loss of salvation, but is simply a reference to their retreat from grace and an embrace of legalism. It refers to the fact that rather than accepting salvation by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), they were trying to be saved by works - circumcision. By not standing firm in the freedom for which they had been set free by Christ (See Galatians 5:1) they were subjecting themselves to a yoke of slavery.
And this was basically the same situation with those to whom the writer of Hebrews was writing.
A Believer today commits this same error when he leaves a church which emphasizes salvation by grace, and joins a church which teaches that salvation depends on things such as water baptism and church membership.
To be alienated from Christ, to fall from grace, means to reject the principle of grace and to embrace legalism. It does not mean a loss of salvation.
On another thread, you implied that I am going to hell because I believe that Jesus will establish a literal physical Millennial kingdom on the earth when He returns, so.............
So take God's word as being the truth.
2 Peter 3:3
Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
"as they do other scriptures" ......
OSAS theology is distorting what God's word teaches about Hebrews 3:14, Hebrews 6:11, Hebrews 10:26, John 15:6, John 3:36, Mark 4:19
Millennialism theology is distorting what God's word says about the 2nd coming \ the rapture and the purpose of Jesus' coming which is to judge all.
Decision theology distorts the incapability of "making a decision for Christ" ect.
Other distortions are the denial of what Baptism does ... what the Lord's Supper does .. etc.
Look Mike, when you say faith is not required as continually being in the person and yet such a person is saved because of OSAS ..... that is very very dangerously close to preaching another gospel.
I don't say such things flippantly ... I am truly concerned for you. I think you're going too far with trying make scriptures fit a certain theorem.
You are once again ignoring parts of the Scripture and imputing your entire faith to just some of the words. Again and again, I have said both Faith and Works are necessary for salvation. What part of my posts have you been unable to discern? But I think God has another--it's Perseverance. Faith, Works AND Perseverance. What parts of the teaching of Perseverance would you cut out in order to be comfortable with doing nothing for God?
But since you have such great insight into my heart, clearly as much as the Lord Jesus Himself, please pray for me.
I can use the prayers, and you can use the practice.
No Dresden. I am not ignoring anything. What you are ignoring is that the Bible repeatedly and explicitly states that works are NOT necessary for salvation. And since it is plainly stated that works are not necessary for salvation it is willful defiance of what the Bible says to claim that works must be added to faith in order to be saved.
Ephesians 2:8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9]not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before hand so that we would walk in them.
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6] whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7] so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
2 Timothy 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9] who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
Romans 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4] Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5]But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Your contention that both faith and works are required for salvation are explicitly refuted by the verses above. Salvation is plainly stated to be apart from works.
As both Ephesians 2:10 and 2 Timothy 1:8 show, works and suffering are a part of the believer's spiritual life after he has been saved, but he is not saved by works. The believer has been saved by grace through faith in Christ ALONE!!!
You try to make works a requirement for salvation instead of putting them in their proper place.
2 Peter 3:3
Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
"as they do other scriptures" ......
OSAS theology is distorting what God's word teaches about Hebrews 3:14, Hebrews 6:11, Hebrews 10:26, John 15:6, John 3:36, Mark 4:19
Millennialism theology is distorting what God's word says about the 2nd coming \ the rapture and the purpose of Jesus' coming which is to judge all.
Decision theology distorts the incapability of "making a decision for Christ" ect.
Other distortions are the denial of what Baptism does ... what the Lord's Supper does .. etc.
Look Mike, when you say faith is not required as continually being in the person and yet such a person is saved because of OSAS ..... that is very very dangerously close to preaching another gospel.
I don't say such things flippantly ... I am truly concerned for you. I think you're going too far with trying make scriptures fit a certain theorem.
No, you say such things out of willful ignorance. Once a person has been saved through an initial act of faith he has been made alive. His eternal life is not dependent on his efforts at maintaining faith. Faith is simply the means by which a person receives the free gift of eternal life. Once he has eternal life he is kept by the power of God. So save your concern for yourself.
The decision that a person must make is to respond to the gospel message concerning Christ or to reject it. And that is the most important decision that anyone will ever make in their life.
And again, on another thread you implied that I am going to go to hell simply because I believe that Jesus will establish a literal Millennial kingdom on the earth when he returns.
Finn, you are resorting to what OSAS'ers always do, quoting pieces of Scripture and explaining the rest away. The Scripture must be taken as a whole. Otherwise the warnings of Jesus over and over about producing fruit come to naught. For even if you are a natural branch as were the Jews, they could be cut off. How much more could you and I who have been grafted onto the tree be taken and thrown into the fire.
No, I am not explaining anything away, I simply quoted the verse, which says some people did not share the faith of the believers. They were not believers. It is true God will reward your works, but it is not true that He will take away your salvation after saving you.
Nothing can separate you from God once you have trusted Him for salvation.
neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord
Our weakness will grieve the Spirit, but we are secured for salvation.
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption
Eternal life begins immediately after we believe, not the day we die. It would not be eternal if you could lose it.
whoever believes in him may have eternal life “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life
The good thing is that as long as you are saved, YOU will NOT lose your salvation even if you are wrong about this.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 08-10-2013 at 02:34 PM..
No Dresden. I am not ignoring anything. What you are ignoring is that the Bible repeatedly and explicitly states that works are NOT necessary for salvation. And since it is plainly stated that works are not necessary for salvation it is willful defiance of what the Bible says to claim that works must be added to faith in order to be saved.
Ephesians 2:8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9]not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before hand so that we would walk in them.
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6] whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7] so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
2 Timothy 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9] who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
Romans 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4] Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5]But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Your contention that both faith and works are required for salvation are explicitly refuted by the verses above. Salvation is plainly stated to be apart from works.
As both Ephesians 2:10 and 2 Timothy 1:8 show, works and suffering are a part of the believer's spiritual life after he has been saved, but he is not saved by works. The believer has been saved by grace through faith in Christ ALONE!!!
You try to make works a requirement for salvation instead of putting them in their proper place.
Works don't work without Faith. And Faith doesn't work without Works. You still ignore multiple verses, including those of Jesus Himself, where He states again and again that the SERVANT (not unbeliever) who is not faithful will be cut off.
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobey the Son will not see life, but must endure God's wrath" (John 3:36 NRSV)
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36 NASB)
There are two types of people frequently mentioned in the Bible. Those who are sheep and those who are goats equating to the saved and the unsaved. But please note that the above verses speak not of sheep and goats or saved and unsaved, but those who BELEIVE and those who DISOBEY.
It is apparent that unbelief is synonymous with disobedience. No one can claim to be saved but live a life of disobedience. The vital truth is that BELIEVERS---OBEY, and unbelievers are disobedient.
"And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief. (Heb 3:18-18 NASB)
Please notice how disobedience is equated to unbelief. Disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief.
"He (Jesus) became the source of eternal salvation to all who OBEY him" (Heb 5:9)
"Those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned." (John 5:29)
"I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death." (John 8:51)
Can it be stated that many who at one time believed on Jesus are now in unbelief as evidenced by their disobedience? The answer is a resounding, YES. Jesus taught,
They believe for awhile, but in the time of testing they fall away. (Luke 8:13)
So which is it? Jesus word for believe is the same as all those you quoted, but you say sometimes the word believe is more efficacious than others? It is more efficacious when Paul says it than when Jesus says it? But if it means the same then there were those who were believers and they fell away.
Anyone who claims to be a believer and has no works of obedience to show for their faith, is actually an UNBELIEVER.
The man who says I know Him, "but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (I John 2:4)
How do we know we are not in unbelief? "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands." (I John 2:3) And how does one know when they truly obey his commands? "This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did." (I John 2: 5b-6)
So if someone claims to be saved, they must also be obedient. For without obedience there is no faith.
Vizio asked at what point someone becomes "unsaved". I don't know. But I do know for those who do believe and are striving each and every day to be obedient there is no need to calculate when they might get unsaved. They are too busy keeping their eyes on the prize to look at the side of the road.
So when God has entrusted us with "talents" to use while we are on this earth, some may choose to bury them in the sand, as did the servant in Jesus' parable in Matt 25:25, but the faithful servants WHO ARE BELIEVERS will be using those talents to further God's work.
Works don't work without Faith. And Faith doesn't work without Works. You still ignore multiple verses, including those of Jesus Himself, where He states again and again that the SERVANT (not unbeliever) who is not faithful will be cut off.
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobey the Son will not see life, but must endure God's wrath" (John 3:36 NRSV)
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36 NASB)
There are two types of people frequently mentioned in the Bible. Those who are sheep and those who are goats equating to the saved and the unsaved. But please note that the above verses speak not of sheep and goats or saved and unsaved, but those who BELEIVE and those who DISOBEY.
It is apparent that unbelief is synonymous with disobedience. No one can claim to be saved but live a life of disobedience. The vital truth is that BELIEVERS---OBEY, and unbelievers are disobedient.
"And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief. (Heb 3:18-18 NASB)
Please notice how disobedience is equated to unbelief. Disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief.
"He (Jesus) became the source of eternal salvation to all who OBEY him" (Heb 5:9)
"Those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned." (John 5:29)
"I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death." (John 8:51)
Can it be stated that many who at one time believed on Jesus are now in unbelief as evidenced by their disobedience? The answer is a resounding, YES. Jesus taught,
They believe for awhile, but in the time of testing they fall away. (Luke 8:13)
So which is it? Jesus word for believe is the same as all those you quoted, but you say sometimes the word believe is more efficacious than others? It is more efficacious when Paul says it than when Jesus says it? But if it means the same then there were those who were believers and they fell away.
Anyone who claims to be a believer and has no works of obedience to show for their faith, is actually an UNBELIEVER.
The man who says I know Him, "but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (I John 2:4)
How do we know we are not in unbelief? "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands." (I John 2:3) And how does one know when they truly obey his commands? "This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did." (I John 2: 5b-6)
So if someone claims to be saved, they must also be obedient. For without obedience there is no faith.
Vizio asked at what point someone becomes "unsaved". I don't know. But I do know for those who do believe and are striving each and every day to be obedient there is no need to calculate when they might get unsaved. They are too busy keeping their eyes on the prize to look at the side of the road.
So when God has entrusted us with "talents" to use while we are on this earth, some may choose to bury them in the sand, as did the servant in Jesus' parable in Matt 25:25, but the faithful servants WHO ARE BELIEVERS will be using those talents to further God's work.
Wrong, Dresden. You have been shown 5 verses all of which say that works play no part in salvation. (See Post #143). Obedience has nothing to do with it. You therefore cannot say that works must be added to faith in order to be saved.
You still cannot make the distinction between what is required to be saved, namely faith alone in Christ alone, and the spiritually productive life of a believer who picks up his cross and follows Jesus.
The disobedience referred to in John 3:36 refers to the refusal to be persuaded by the gospel. In other words it refers to those who refuse to believe on Christ.
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey(apeitheó) the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
And regarding Hebrews 5:9, the Bible Knowledge Commentary says:
This is what the writer had in mind when he affirmed that He became the Source (aitios) of eternal salvation for all who obey Him. The salvation here referred to cannot be distinguished from that which is termed an inheritance (Heb. 1:14). It is also to be identified with the ''eternal inheritance'' mentioned in 9:15. It should not be confused with the acquisition of eternal life which is conditioned not on obedience but on faith (cf. John 3:16, etc.). Once again the writer had in mind final deliverance from and victory over all enemies and the consequent enjoyment of the ''glory'' of the many sons and daughters. This kind of salvation is explicitly contingent on obedience and indeed on an obedience modeled after that of Jesus who also suffered. It is thus closely relaed to the saying of the Lord in which He declared, ''If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for Me and for the gospel will save it'' (Mark 8:34-35). [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 792.]
You must learn to distinguish between the various ways in which the word salvation is used in the Bible. Eternal life is conditioned only on faith alone in Christ alone. The believer's eternal inheritance (rewards) is however dependent upon obedience. Again, distinguish between salvation through faith alone in Christ alone, and the spiritual life of the believer after salvation. They are not the same thing.
Last edited by Michael Way; 08-10-2013 at 06:29 PM..
Wrong, Dresden. You have been shown 5 verses all of which say that works play no part in salvation. (See Post #143). Obedience has nothing to do with it. You therefore cannot say that works must be added to faith in order to be saved.
You still cannot make the distinction between what is required to be saved, namely faith alone in Christ alone, and the spiritually productive life of a believer who picks up his cross and follows Jesus.
The disobedience referred to in John 3:36 refers to the refusal to be persuaded by the gospel. In other words it refers to those who refuse to believe on Christ.
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey(apeitheó) the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
And you cannot see that if there are no works there is no faith, despite half a dozen or more scriptures stating the same.
Those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned." (John 5:29)
The man who says I know Him, "but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (I John 2:4)
Unless, of course, you are going to insist that the ONLY commandment of Jesus is to make a one-time decision. In effect, that nullifies His entire ministry of three years.
Once again, you piecemeal the Scriptures, cherry picking to protect the cherished hope that a one time decision will be pleasing in God's eyes as opposed to a life of obedience.
No one needs to have what "disobedience" means explained to them. Jesus told us how to live. We either live that way or we don't. It's only in the eyes of self-rationalization that someone has to "explain" that disobedience means not accepting Jesus. That destroys everything both He and John the Baptist taught and lived for.
A faith based on rationalization instead of a straight forward understanding of the Scriptures is not faith at all. It is dogma. You have been shown that historically the church never believed works was separate from faith. You have ignored Bible verses or "explained" them away to hold onto dogma. I have not discounted any verse you have quoted--they are all true--but they are true in conjunction with all those other Bible verses, too. Even the Universalists on this thread hold that "works" are the only way to display faith.
But a faith of the mouth without any faith from the heart as displayed by good works, is no faith at all. It is a whispering of sweet nothings in God's ear in hope that he will not notice the disobedience that one is practicing.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 08-10-2013 at 06:33 PM..
And you cannot see that if there are no works there is no faith, despite half a dozen or more scriptures stating the same.
Those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned." (John 5:29)
The man who says I know Him, "but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (I John 2:4)
Unless, of course, you are going to insist that the ONLY commandment of Jesus is to make a one-time decision. In effect, that nullifies His entire ministry of three years.
Once again, you piecemeal the Scriptures, cherry picking to protect the cherished hope that a one time decision will be pleasing in God's eyes as opposed to a life of obedience.
On the contrary. A dead or non-productive faith (no works) is not a non-existent faith. What do you think of when you see the word 'dead'? That it was once alive. But James is not even talking about salvation.
And go back and read the addition to my last post which I added while you were posting this.
And I suppose that you think that every theologian who believes in the eternal security of the believer piecemeals the Scriptures and cherry picks. What about Charles Stanley for instance? He teaches eternal security. Or Robert McLaughlin, the author of the study I provided in the OP? Or Lewis Sperry Chafer (died 1952) who founded Dallas Theological Seminary? Or Dr. Robert Dean of West Houston Bible Church and Chairman of the Governing Board for Chafer Theological Seminary? Or any of a number of others I could name? Do you think that they cherry pick the Scriptures? I'm sure you do.
Last edited by Michael Way; 08-10-2013 at 07:03 PM..
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Being Obedient is the test of Faith
