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It's not only that the writing, since we have no originals, that may be questionable. There appears to have been a political religious purpose in re-arranging both the Old and New Testament from its earliest writings. Basically the Jews were being discriminated against even with their OWN writings!!
For example the Catholic epistles should be before the Pauline epistles.
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The reason for the placement of these seven epistles before the fourteen of Paul is because the early manuscripts which most textual critics uphold as the best in existence (notably the Vaticanus, the Alexandrinus and the Ephraem) position them in that order. There can be no doubt that this is where those seven epistles belong. But in our modern versions, the translators have abandoned this order of the manuscripts and adopted the arbitrary arrangement of Jerome who in the early 5th century (when he translated his Latin Vulgate) put the letters of the apostle Paul into a first position ahead of the seven “General Epistles” (James to Jude) which were considered to be “Jewish."
Jerome also placed the Book of Hebrews from its 10th place position in the manuscripts within the fourteen epistles of Paul and put it at the back (into the least position) because of its “Jewish” characteristics and because some western theologians questioned whether it was written by Paul.
This new arrangement of Jerome had the advantage in Jerome’s eyes and to some western theologians of exalting the position of Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles) to a primal authority of rank above the Jewish apostles who were commissioned to go to the Jews. Jerome’s new and radical placement of Paul’s epistles before the seven “Catholic Epistles” in his Latin Vulgate also placed the Book of Romans and the city of Rome (the city to whom the first epistle of Paul’s collection of books was sent) into a first rank position ahead of the Jewish apostles who once had Jerusalem for their top rank position. This rearrangement by Jerome (to exalt the Gentile section of the Christian Church, and the city of Rome in particular) does not have the slightest justification when one consults the majority of the early Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Indeed, notice what Dr. Bullinger had to say about this arrangement of Jerome.
“Our English Bibles follow the order as given in the Latin Vulgate. This order, therefore, depends on the arbitrary judgment of one man, Jerome (A.D. 382–429). All theories based on this order rest on human authority, and are thus without any true foundation.”
Companion Bible, Appendix 95, p.139
note Scrivener’s (an early scholar of modern textual criticism) words after surveying over 4000 New Testament manuscripts:
“Whether copies contain the whole or a part of the sacred ‘volume, the general order of the books is the following: Gospels, Acts, Catholic Epistles, Pauline Epistles, Apocalypse [the Book of Revelation].”
With regard to the New Testament there are two major reasons publishers will not return to the original order of the Bible.
1. It's as old as your pocketbook. Money. The publishers are afraid that correcting the order would feel too 'strange' to purchasers of a new Bible, so they hang on to the revised order.
2. It's about ethnicity. The textual scholars of the last century knew that this arrangement by Jerome was simply the one preferred by him and it was willfully devised to exalt the so-called “Gentile” epistles of the New Testament into a primal position over those which had “Jewish” characteristics.
The Old Testament, which now contains 39 books only had 22 in the beginning--mostly through organization. The twenty-two fit the Hebrew alphabet. And they were divided into three sections:
1. The Law
2. The Prophets
3. The Holy Writings
The New Testament of 27 books was four parts divided as
1. The Historical Books
2. The seven general or Catholic epistles
3. The fourteen (7x2, take note) of Paul
4. The final book, Revelation
Now note that the 22 of the OT and the 27 of the NT equal 49 books--a number evenly divided by seven which was a holy number for the Hebrews.
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They noticed that the seventh day of the week completed the week.
They also saw that the seven weeks of grain harvest (the 49 days from Passover to Pentecost) completed the firstfruits harvest.
The first seven months of the Hebrew calendar contained the times for the seven annual festivals commanded by Moses. In a sense it could be said that the festival year of Moses was completed in seven months, and those seven months contained and completed the holy day schedule for the Israelites.
And let us not forget that every seventh year was reckoned a Sabbatical Year and it commemorated the completion of six years of agricultural activity for the Hebrews in Palestine.
After seven of those Sabbatical Years were completed (a period of 49 years), the Year of Jubilee was reached which was supposed to be a time of a thorough and finalized agricultural and
financial rejuvenation for all Israelites in Palestine. This period of 49 years (7 times 7) was the Jubilee period when a religious and civil cycle was completed. This was when all social and economic activities were supposed to return to the same condition as they had been at the beginning of the previous 49 years.
Why are these sevens and multiples of sevens important? They show that it was no accident that the total number of Old and New Testament books came to 49 in number (7 times 7) in the enumeration maintained by the early Jewish and early Christian authorities.
So the manipulation of even placement of the scripture actually REDUCED an important numerical element that both the Hebrews and earliest Christians saw in the Bible. It was speaking in ways beyond the words themselves. So when someone claims all of this is meaningless, I beg to disagree!!
The very ORDER and division of the original books speaks to an orderliness of spiritual heart and mind.
::Sigh::
As long as this strengthens your Faith in Christ and you follow His commands to "love God and each other" daily and repent when you don't . . . none of this matters.
I think what God say's and has said and what Jesus has said does matter greatly.
The King James is a reliable English translation. Avoid those infected by modern textual criticism and that use the Gnostic influenced Alexandrian texts. If the English of the 1760s is difficult for you, I recommend Jay Green Sr's excellent "King James in Modern English" if you can find it. The KJ3 by the same translator is also excellent.
I'd rather read the Latin Vulgate. That was the standard for a millennium. If Latin is too difficult for you, learn it since it is fast supplanting English as the global language anyway. (And a little birdie told me that the Tridentine Latin Mass is making a comeback within the next few years, another reason to learn Latin.) The Douay-Rheims is an excellent English translation of the Latin Vulgate contemporaneous with the creation of the King James Bible.
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Originally Posted by Mike930
This is why it's advantageous to get some study guides like a Strong's concordance and a lexicon. You'd be surprised at the Greek meaning of some words. It's a much more expressive language than English.
1COR 14:19 "Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue."
::Sigh::
As long as this strengthens your Faith in Christ and you follow His commands to "love God and each other" daily and repent when you don't . . . none of this matters.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
LOL. Okay, Mystic, but for the purpose of this particular thread, it does. Neither you nor I are Bible inerrantists, so don't at me.
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Originally Posted by nateswift
I think that response was to someone else.
It was, nate . . . but Katz' post was between so I understand her confusion.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
Maybe. I thought it was both to me and to Faith_Plus_Nothing. At any rate, I would agree with Mystic that there are a whole lot more important things to God than whether you believe the Bible to be inerrant or not. And while one translation may be better than another, I don't think He's going to condemn someone just for using the wrong one. On the other hand, I think it's simply ridiculous for anyone to assume that any of today's translations is a 100% accurate representation of the mind of God.
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Originally Posted by Faith_Plus_Nothing
I think what God say's and has said and what Jesus has said does matter greatly.
No one disagrees that what God said and what Jesus said matter. The issue is the accuracy of what we are told they said as found in what is currently in the canon . . . especially in the face of extreme contradictory portrayals of the true nature of God the Father. I trust Christ's revelations about the Father . . . not our ignorant savage ancestors' superstitious and barbaric beliefs about Jehovah (YHWH). I really don't want to engage you on this topic, Faith . . . because I can tell you are not remotely amenable to reason or common sense. This is a matter of dogma to you and it seems to be very important to your faith . . . which I do not want to challenge in any way, period.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
I feel sorry for you if you've abandoned the certainties of scripture (not the pulpits). I will preach what the Bible says, and I'm confident that it is the Word of God. Unfortunately, there are some preachers that won't do that.
This pastor is your kind of preacher, Faith . . . and he has the same unreasonable views about the inerrancy of the Bible that you do. I see no point in debating such unreasoning credulity about such an obvious absurdity.
I feel sorry for you if you've abandoned the certainties of scripture (not the pulpits). I will preach what the Bible says, and I'm confident that it is the Word of God. Unfortunately, there are some preachers that won't do that.
I still hold to the priesthood of the believer as proclaimed by Martin Luther. A pastor may be a shepherd of a church flock, but his understanding of the scriptures is limited to his education and his life experiences. If he fails to look at textual criticism of scripture to attempt a better understanding of it, it tells me he has made up his mind and is no longer seeking to work out his own salvation.
I'm still seeking fifty years after making that decision for Christ. I prefer to hear pastors preach from the pulpit who are still seeking. That tells me they are hungry for God and are willing to do ANYTHING to get closer to Him. When that is missing from the pulpit, then I'm at least a good a priest as any of them and have my own education, my own life experience, and my own seeking of the Holy Spirit to guide me.
If you've "arrived" at the answer, then you no longer have a living faith.
The Jesus I serve is ALIVE and still speaking to men and women in wondrous ways. It's just rare to find that within a church anymore.
So don't tell me what Jesus DID in the Bible description of events 2000 years ago, tell me what He DID that we can and should start doing RIGHT NOW!! Something that will make our lives closer to Him. Not reading or praying--all of us do that to varying degrees. What ACTS of GOODNESS and FAITH can we do as Christians that will illustrate to others with our lives that Jesus is Lord?
Last edited by Wardendresden; 08-15-2013 at 10:21 PM..
Reason: clarification
How come some books made it into the bible,but others(ex: the book of Enoch) didn't?
I read the Nwt because its easier to read and understand than the Kjv.
John 1:1 in my Nwt reads" and the word was a god."
In the Kjv,its :and the word was God".
So you prefer the incorrect change made to that verse over an accurate translation? Why not accept it as written and find a translation that is faithful to the original text and does not change it? Would you not prefer truth? There is not a single manuscript to back up that change.
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Neither you nor I are Bible inerrantists, so don't 
