Will habitually Sexually Immoral Christians who are saved go to heaven?? (Revelation, believe)
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Anyone who has received Christ as Savior is already saved. Everyone who has not received Christ as Savior is still under condemnation. That is plainly taught in Scripture.
As for the believer going to heaven, Ephesians 2:6 tells us that, positionally speaking, the believer is seated with Christ in the heavenlies. Jesus in His current session is seated at the right hand of the Father. When the believer dies his soul separates from his body and goes into the presence of the Lord in heaven. Paul stated that while at home in the body we are absent from the Lord, and to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord. He expressed a desire to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6-8).
In Revelation 6:9-11 Tribulational martyrs are seen in heaven. And yes, the scene is in heaven. When Jesus returns to the earth at the end of the Tribulation all who are currently in heave will return with Him
Sorry, Paul does not say that at all. Go back and read what Paul actually says. If what you say is true, there is no need for a resurrection of the saints since you say they are already in Heaven. Paul too, must have been mistaken when he said we were to gather together with the Christ at his coming. Job also was mistaken when he said he would wait in his grave until his change came. One cannot gather together unto the Lord but once, my Friend.
Why will "all who are in their graves will come forth" if they have already come forth? Who are the angels going to gather or harvest if they've already gone up when they died?
Sorry, Paul does not say that at all. Go back and read what Paul actually says. If what you say is true, there is no need for a resurrection of the saints since you say they are already in Heaven. Paul too, must have been mistaken when he said we were to gather together with the Christ at his coming. Job also was mistaken when he said he would wait in his grave until his change came. One cannot gather together unto the Lord but once, my Friend.
Why will "all who are in their graves will come forth" if they have already come forth? Who are the angels going to gather or harvest if they've already gone up when they died?
The Book of Revelation is a symbolic book.
On the contrary. Paul said and meant exactly what I said (2 Corinthians 5:6-8). You have to understand that resurrection refers to the body. While the body of the believer dies, his soul goes into the presence of the Lord in heaven. In the future, the body of the believer will be resurrected and the soul will reunite with the resurrected body. The soul (the real person) is immortal and continues to exist when it departs the body. It has to go somewhere when it leaves the body. As Paul said concerning the believer, to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord.
And again, believers are seen in heaven in Revelation 6:9-11. While there is much symbolism in Revelation, the symbolism refers to things which are real. For example, the seven lampstands in Revelation 1:12, 20 is symbolic imagery for the seven churches of Asia. Also not everything in Revelation is symbolic. There is nothing symbolic about the language in Revelation 6:9-11. It speaks plainly of Tribulational martyrs in heaven.
Last edited by Michael Way; 05-23-2014 at 01:08 PM..
On the contrary. Paul said and meant exactly what I said (2 Corinthians 5:6-8). You have to understand that resurrection refers to the body. While the body of the believer dies, his soul goes into the presence of the Lord in heaven. In the future, the body of the believer will be resurrected and the soul will reunite with the resurrected body. The soul (the real person) is immortal and continues to exist when it departs the body. It has to go somewhere when it leaves the body. As Paul said concerning the believer, to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord.
And again, believers are seen in heaven in Revelation 6:9-11.
OK Mike. I'll post what Paul actually said:
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
No problem with the above. The problem is with this one:
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Nowhere does the above compound sentence state as you claim "to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord.
The scripture is a compound statement: (1) We are willing to be absent from the body
AND
(2) We are willing to be present with the Lord.
That body in the grave is gone. It is rotted away. Why would we want to be rejoined with it? Are you claiming God is unable to give us a new body up in Heaven? Come on!!
No. The dead are dead and will remain so until they partake in on or the other of the resurrections. If any soul or spirit of anyone is flying around in Heaven at present, that soul or spirit is a total loon!!
Psa_146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Job_14:21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.
Psa_6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Ecc_9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Besides, Christ says he brings his reward for each person with him when he returns? If millions are already up there with him now, why not go ahead and give them their rewards now and cut out the logistics?
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
No problem with the above. The problem is with this one:
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Nowhere does the above compound sentence state as you claim "to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord.
The scripture is a compound statement: (1) We are willing to be absent from the body
AND
(2) We are willing to be present with the Lord.
That body in the grave is gone. It is rotted away. Why would we want to be rejoined with it? Are you claiming God is unable to give us a new body up in Heaven? Come on!!
No. The dead are dead and will remain so until they partake in on or the other of the resurrections. If any soul or spirit of anyone is flying around in Heaven at present, that soul or spirit is a total loon!!
Psa_146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Job_14:21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.
Psa_6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Ecc_9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Besides, Christ says he brings his reward for each person with him when he returns? If millions are already up there with him now, why not go ahead and give them their rewards now and cut out the logistics?
The fact that Paul stated in 2 Cor. 5:6 that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord means that the opposite is true. To be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord. And Paul expresses the desire to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord. Paul also expresses the desire in Phil. 1:26 to depart and be with Christ.
Concerning the resurrection of the body, when it is resurrected it is raised as a body of incorruptibility and immortality as stated in 1 Cor. 15:51-54.
You are making the mistake that those who hold to the false doctrine of soul sleep make. That of ignoring the clearer revelation of the New Testament in favor of the more obscure and lesser revelation of the Old Testament.
And again, believers are seen in heaven in Revelation 6:9-11. While there is much symbolism in Revelation, the symbolism refers to things which are real. For example, the seven lampstands in Revelation 1:12, 20 is symbolic imagery for the seven churches of Asia. Also not everything in Revelation is symbolic. There is nothing symbolic about the language in Revelation 6:9-11. It speaks plainly of Tribulational martyrs in heaven.
The fact that Paul stated in 2 Cor. 5:6 that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord means that the opposite is true. To be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord. And Paul expresses the desire to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord. Paul also expresses the desire in Phil. 1:26 to depart and be with Christ.
Concerning the resurrection of the body, when it is resurrected it is raised as a body of incorruptibility and immortality as stated in 1 Cor. 15:51-54.
You are making the mistake that those who hold to the false doctrine of soul sleep make. That of ignoring the clearer revelation of the New Testament in favor of the more obscure and lesser revelation of the Old Testament.
And again, believers are seen in heaven in Revelation 6:9-11. While there is much symbolism in Revelation, the symbolism refers to things which are real. For example, the seven lampstands in Revelation 1:12, 20 is symbolic imagery for the seven churches of Asia. Also not everything in Revelation is symbolic. There is nothing symbolic about the language in Revelation 6:9-11. It speaks plainly of Tribulational martyrs in heaven.
You are still changing what the scripture plainly says. It does NOT say to be absent from the body IS to be with the Lord.
Where is this new-fangled super-duper body now? Is it in the grave? Are the dead souls as you claim that are in Heaven coming back with shovels and dig them up? This is Mother Goose stuff. If their thoughts are perished how are they going to have sense enough to dig up anything? Can't God give them the bodies now?
Yes, I certainly believe in soul sleep. I am a living creature - a soul. I try to get some sleep every night.
So the dead souls in Heaven return with the Christ and he waits patiently while they each go forth with shovels and dig up their super-duper new bodies? Fantastic.
Yes the souls under the alter are symbolic of those slain for Christ. The Tribulation ain't happened yet so they ain't there yet. Of course many in times past were slain defending the Christ and Christianity. Wonder why they ain't there?
What is Job waiting in his grave for? He claims he's waiting for his change to come. I always assumed he was waiting to change into a spirit being like the Christ. I guess though, he's waing on changing into his super-duper body.
Christ said no one had ascended except himself. You'd think he would be aware of all the dead saints who have ascended.
Will habitually Sexually Immoral Christians who are saved go to heaven??
Yes. Their mansion may be somewhat smaller, their street may be paved with less gold, and there's certain clouds they may be forbidden from walking on, but aside from that, the answer is YES.
Real Christians do not habitually sin. It is a very uncomfortable thing to do for a Christian. It sounds like you are hanging with the wrong people. And just because they go to a clubhouse with other people does not make them a Christian. Let's get real!
Real Christians sin on a daily basis. If you think you do not, you are decieving yourself.
You are still changing what the scripture plainly says. It does NOT say to be absent from the body IS to be with the Lord.
Where is this new-fangled super-duper body now? Is it in the grave? Are the dead souls as you claim that are in Heaven coming back with shovels and dig them up? This is Mother Goose stuff. If their thoughts are perished how are they going to have sense enough to dig up anything? Can't God give them the bodies now?
Yes, I certainly believe in soul sleep. I am a living creature - a soul. I try to get some sleep every night.
So the dead souls in Heaven return with the Christ and he waits patiently while they each go forth with shovels and dig up their super-duper new bodies? Fantastic.
Yes the souls under the alter are symbolic of those slain for Christ. The Tribulation ain't happened yet so they ain't there yet. Of course many in times past were slain defending the Christ and Christianity. Wonder why they ain't there?
What is Job waiting in his grave for? He claims he's waiting for his change to come. I always assumed he was waiting to change into a spirit being like the Christ. I guess though, he's waing on changing into his super-duper body.
Christ said no one had ascended except himself. You'd think he would be aware of all the dead saints who have ascended.
No, I am not changing either the wording or the meaning of what Paul said.
2 Cor. 2:6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
And then Paul states in verse 8 - we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
By this statement Paul recognizes that while we are in the body, we are not in heaven with the Lord and therefore expresses his desire to be absent from the body and therefore at home with the Lord who is in heaven.
And why do you resort to sarcasm? The resurrection is explained in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53] For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54] But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
For the church this resurrection will occur at the rapture of the church prior to the Tribulation when God will bring with Him all who have died in Christ and are in heaven with Him. And those church-age believers who are alive on the earth will be caught up to meet them in the air after which the entire church will go into heaven until the end of the Tribulation. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 speaks of the rapture or catching up of the church which again is when the church-age believer receives his resurrection body.
Prior to the resurrection and ascension of Christ believers went to the compartment of Hades known as Paradise or Abraham's bosom. Now that the humanity of Jesus Christ is in heaven seated at the right hand of the Father believers go to the third heaven where Paradise is now said to be. (2 Cor. 12:2-4).
The souls under the alter in Revelation 6:9-11 are not symbolic. And of course this is still a future event.
Regarding Revelation 6:9-11 the Bible knowledge Commentary states the following.
6:9. With the opening of the fifth seal John had another revelation of heaven itself and his attention was directed to souls pictured as under the alter and identified as those who had been slain because of the testimony they had maintained. (For ''under the altar,'' see Ex. 29:12; Lev. 4:7.) These are obviously martyrs, mentioned in more detail in Revelation 7. This makes it clear that souls will be saved in the Great Tribulation, but many of them will be martyred.
6:10-11. They will cry out to the Lord, asking how long it will be before He will avenge them. In reply each is given a white robe and informed that the Tribulation is not over and that others must be martyred before God's judgment on the wicked and deliverance of the righteous occurs at the Second Coming. This passage shows that the time period is the Great Tribulation, but not its end.
Spirits without any substance could not wear robes. The fact that they will be given robes supports the concept that when believers die they are given temporary bodies in heaven which are later replaced by resurrection bodies at the time of resurrection (cf. 20:4). [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 948]
The Expositor's Bible Commentary has this.
John says that he saw the soul's (psychas) of those slain (v.9). This is generally understood to mean the disembodied souls of those saints. However, the Greek word psyche has various meanings and probably stands here for the actual ''lives'' or ''persons'' who were killed rather than for their ''souls.'' They are seen by John as persons who are very much alive though they have been killed by the beast.. ''Under the altar'' sets the scene as occurring in the temple of heaven. [The Expositor's Bible Commentary, vol. 12, p. 475.
The Bible does not teach soul sleep, and mainstream Christianity recognizes this.
The Bible also teaches the resurrection of the body as shown.
I've spent enough time going over this with you. As is usual on this forum, people simply will not be objective about issues and will not listen to anything which contradicts what they already believe, and as you have done, resort to making sarcastic remarks. Whether you agree with it or not, the Bible teaches that the believer goes to heaven when he dies. Soul sleep is not Biblical.
I've spent enough time going over this with you. As is usual on this forum, people simply will not be objective about issues and will not listen to anything which contradicts what they already believe, and as you have done, resort to making sarcastic remarks. Whether you agree with it or not, the Bible teaches that the believer goes to heaven when he dies. Soul sleep is not Biblical.
Inasmuch as the entire debate is about what everyone agrees is a temporary state for a temporary time, it's not really a debate that matters (although I recognize that the Catholic concepts of purgatory and communion of saints depend on the dead being aware and active).
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