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So, you do not believe He died for our sins, but you think He died to change us. Why was His death required to change us, and how exactly did it accomplish it. The article does not explain it, it simply states it is so. I would like someone to explain how it works. If you took a gun and said you are going to kill yourself in order to change me, I would ask how your death should change me.
I have explained it to you many times, Finn. Why do you persist with this pretense that it has not been explained? His death made His Holy Spirit available to us all as the Comforter within our consciousness. We have guidance within our consciousness to lead us to the truth God has now "written in our hearts" in agape love. This aids us in our attempts to "love God and each other" daily. That is how we are changed from our ancestors before Christ.
A closer look at Scripture reveals an astonishing lack of support for penal substitution. The Scriptures never say that Jesus "died in our place" or "paid for our sins."
But you can only reach that conclusion by eliminating Shana's verses from Isaiah---to name only a few:
Isaiah 53:
10IBut the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His [n]offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many,---(note it does not say ALL!)
As He will bear their iniquities.
12
Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.
Substitutionary faith is the faith of our fathers--even prior to Jesus. And the holiest Jews themselves believe in substitutionary sacrifice ONLY in conjunction with mercy. Early in this thread I quoted a Jew writing about it. Sacrifice only becomes valid with a merciful heart. That is why Jesus sacrifice was acceptable to God--He did so with a merciful heart.
Warden, I am familiar with the Sacrifices and offerings within the mindsets and perceptions of men.
And it didn't end with animal sacrifices to appease their gods?
And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said:
"If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me.
When I return in triumph, I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." --His own daughter!
I have explained it to you many times, Finn. Why do you persist with this pretense that it has not been explained? His death made His Holy Spirit available to us all as the Comforter within our consciousness. We have guidance within our consciousness to lead us to the truth God has now "written in our hearts" in agape love. This aids us in our attempts to "love God and each other" daily. That is how we are changed from our ancestors before Christ.
You had many opportunities to explain why His death was required to "release the Spirit", but unfortunately I have no clue where you get such ideas. Now I am asking Pneuma in case he has a better explanation.
So, you do not believe He died for our sins, but you think He died to change us. Why was His death required to change us, and how exactly did it accomplish it. The article does not explain it, it simply states it is so. I would like someone to explain how it works. If you took a gun and said you are going to kill yourself in order to change me, I would ask how your death should change me.
actually fin if I took a gun and shot myself it would change you even though you might not realise it at first.
His death showed us how we to are to take up our cross, and it is by way of taking up our cross that accomplishes the change.
So let me now ask you a question fin.
If Jesus death was a substitute for us as you believe why then do we have to take up our OWN cross?
So, you do not believe He died for our sins, but you think He died to change us. Why was His death required to change us, and how exactly did it accomplish it. The article does not explain it, it simply states it is so. I would like someone to explain how it works. If you took a gun and said you are going to kill yourself in order to change me, I would ask how your death should change me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
actually fin if I took a gun and shot myself it would change you even though you might not realise it at first.
His death showed us how we to are to take up our cross, and it is by way of taking up our cross that accomplishes the change.
So let me now ask you a question fin.
If Jesus death was a substitute for us as you believe why then do we have to take up our OWN cross?
Just wanted to add that it is good that you took the time to read the link, I thank you for that.
actually fin if I took a gun and shot myself it would change you even though you might not realise it at first.
His death showed us how we to are to take up our cross, and it is by way of taking up our cross that accomplishes the change.
His death does that because He laid down His life so others can live, but your view removes the sacrifice, and leaves only the death without a purpose. I am asking how His death changed us considering it was not done in our place. If you shot yourself claiming it is to change me, I would only have to ask why you did it. If you did it, because it was the only way to save my life, then I would understand.
I am asking how it accomplished the change, and you are telling me that it just did, and that leads me to think you are not sure about this view.
Quote:
So let me now ask you a question fin.
If Jesus death was a substitute for us as you believe why then do we have to take up our OWN cross?
Did the thief on the cross work? No, he did not, but Jesus told Him he will be in paradise with Jesus. Taking up your cross is an instruction for Christian living. If it is a requirement for something, then can you explain what it is required for, and what happened to the thief considering he did not meet this requirement?
His death does that because He laid down His life so others can live, but your view removes the sacrifice, and leaves only the death without a purpose. I am asking how His death changed us considering it was not done in our place, but simply to "change us". If you shot yourself claiming it is to change me, I would only have to ask why you did it. If you did it, because it was the only way to save my life, then I would understand.
Did the thief on the cross work? No, he did not, but Jesus told Him he will be in paradise with Jesus. Taking up your cross is an instruction for Christian living. If it is a requirement for something, then can you explain what it is required for, and what happened to the thief considering he did not meet this requirement?
No, he laid down his life to deliver us from the power of sin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
God dealt with the cause of sin and death and broke the power of it over our lives. If he did not, we remain powerless and slaves to it.
No, IN all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us( knowing you are loved of God IS the conqueoring force in our lives over sin and death and the force that breaks the power of it over our lives).
And No one on here is saying they are the Christ.
Substitute and penal atonement still leaves you under the power of sin and death.
No, he laid down his life to deliver us from the power of sin.
Substitute and penal atonement still leaves you under the power of sin and death.
I gave you many opportunities yesterday to explain how his death accomplished it, given your view that He did not die in our place, and you failed to explain it. If you think you explained it, then please point out where you did so.
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