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Paul was a man. A sinful man. Do you believe Christ was sinful? Then understand that Jesus' words and actions ALWAYS trumps those of sinful man.
But keep up your worship of Paul. I prefer to worship and follow the One who gave His life for all. Nothing you have posted reflects Jesus. Instead it reflects the thought process of the ones Jesus called "vipers."
Your best friends are in the ten Muslim nations that legalize killing homosexuals. Apparently no matter how many they have killed God keeps allowing more to be born. I think you would be much more comfortable in a setting that still has a god, but a god who proposes killing people you don't like. Try Iran or Saudi Arabia.
Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 5 were inspired by God. The only defense you can offer is to attack the character of Paul and myself (seems to be a pattern). You judge/condemn others by how much love they have for the abominable sin of homosexuality. I guess Paul (and God who inspired Paul to write Corinthians) rate very low on your love scale.
Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 5 were inspired by God. The only defense you can offer is to attack the character of Paul and myself (seems to be a pattern). You judge/condemn others by how much love they have for the abominable sin of homosexuality. I guess Paul (and God who inspired Paul to write Corinthians) rate very low on your love scale.
tthttf
I guess you don't hold with the theory that Paul was gay?
Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 5 were inspired by God. The only defense you can offer is to attack the character of Paul and myself (seems to be a pattern). You judge/condemn others by how much love they have for the abominable sin of homosexuality. I guess Paul (and God who inspired Paul to write Corinthians) rate very low on your love scale.
tthttf
(Corinthians 6:9-10) Homosexual offenders was not added to Corinthians until the 1940s. That's not what it meant in the original scriptures. And Paul mentions a lot of other sins, including numerous ones you commit. He also says you have no right to call others out on their sins, because you do the same things. Scientific studies have shown that we project our own beliefs onto what God believes, and that if our beliefs change, so do God's.
As for 1 Corinthians 6:9. The issue with that verse is a mistranslation of a made up, obscure Greek word, Arsenokoites. Conservative Bible translators corrupted the verse, and translated it as "homosexuals" in 1959 A.D. Prior to that point, it never referred to gay people, especially not lesbians as Arseno means male. Yet, homosexual refers to women too. Obvious bias. Actually, there was no such word for homosexual during biblical times. Keep in mind, the only one said to have actually communicated with God directly is Moses.
Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 5 were inspired by God. The only defense you can offer is to attack the character of Paul and myself (seems to be a pattern). You judge/condemn others by how much love they have for the abominable sin of homosexuality. I guess Paul (and God who inspired Paul to write Corinthians) rate very low on your love scale.
tthttf
If you love Paul more than Jesus, then there is no way you can be considered Christian. Period.
And the most prejudicial, awful, ungodly churches out there are ALWAYS quoting Paul, rarely Jesus except where they think Jesus supports Paul. Paul hijacked Christianity in the early days of Christianity. He was the first author of anything ABOUT Christianity--when he, himself, had never met Jesus in face-to-face life. Further, if I knew someone HAD walked and talked with Jesus I would have spent years listening to them. Paul spent about two or three weeks. Then figured he'd heard all he needed to hear and immediately began preaching a gospel that was not being preached in Jerusalem.
Read Paul's letters where he accuses some churches of sliding back into their "old" ways because, according to him, false teachers arrived. There are more than a few theologians that believe it was James, the brother of Jesus, who was sending people behind Paul.
So why did Paul's message which is a strange mixture of both hope and ugliness win out? That would be because when Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 C.E. they wiped out the mother church. Christianity became Paulinized with elements of Greek and pagan thought mixed in.
Get out of Sunday School and STUDY the Bible as if you never saw it before. Because you haven't.
You're out to "win" a battle over what you call the abomination of homosexuality. Homosexuals aren't trying to "win." Victory creates enemies. It always has and always will. They want reconciliation--and reconciliation creates unity.
I dare say there are many, many homosexual Christians that are far closer to the Kingdom of God than you will ever be unless your heart changes.
For me, I will contemplate daily what I can do so that all can be free. I am not fighting for myself or even for those that might agree with me. I am fighting for EVERYONE. I believe I must sacrifice my own personal wishes that all might be free. Because faith in God only comes with freedom, not from being confined to the words in a book, like a bird in a cage.
How many times have you thought about sacrificing your comforts for another person's freedom. Particularly someone you don't understand, don't know, and have nothing in common with. That's what I'm willing to do for homosexuals because I REALLY DO believe that one must ACT for the good of others if their faith is to mean anything at all.
And at the end of my journey I humbly and prayerfully hope to hear, "Truly, I say to you, as you did to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me."
Your welcome to beat your chest and tell Jesus that you thank God that you were not like those homosexuals. If the New Testament means anything at all, it isn't going to go well for you.
What does your questions have to do with my belief that homosexuality is a sin? That's all I'm presenting here. My belief regarding homosexuality. I'm not condemning anyone specifically. I believe everyone should actually have the freedom to pursue whatever lifestyle makes them happy as long as it doesn't hurt people or infringe on other's freedoms.
But homosexuals have crossed that line. They have infringed on the freedom of Christian businesses. There appears an agenda to engrain homosexuality into every facet of society, every organization, Christian or secular. So that's how it affects me. I believe same sex marriage is an abomination. I don't want to see it, but I can't even enjoy Sunday football lately without seeing this example (at 0.20 sec) constantly:
It's subtle, but a great example of the media trying to tell me that I need to get with the program. Same sex marriage is normal, wonderful and good according to these messages, but Satan is a great deceiver.
Yes Satan is. And the place he parks himself is in churches. Every single time Jesus spoke out harshly against anyone it was against religious leaders. Those same religious leaders are who you are listening to.
Matt. 7:4, "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye."
Matt. 15:7-9, "You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 8 ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far away from Me." 9 ‘But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’”
Matt. 23:13, "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from men; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in."
Matt. 23:15, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites . . . "
Matt. 23:16-17, "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obligated.’ 17 “You fools and blind men; which is more important, the gold, or the temple that sanctified the gold?"
Matt. 23:23-24, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24 “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!"
Matt. 23:25, "“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!"
Matt. 23:27-28, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 "Even so you too outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."
Matt. 23:29, “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!"
Matt. 23:33, "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell?"
Mark 12:38-40, "Beware of the scribes who like to walk around in long robes, and like respectful greetings in the market places, 39 and chief seats in the synagogues, and places of honor at banquets, 40 who devour widows’ houses, and for appearance’s sake offer long prayers; these will receive greater condemnation."
Luke 11:40, "You foolish ones, did not He who made the outside make the inside also?"
Luke 11:43-44, "Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the front seats in the synagogues, and the respectful greetings in the market places. 44 “Woe to you! For you are like concealed tombs, and the people who walk over them are unaware of it."
Luke 11:52, "Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered."
Luke 12:1, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy."
John 8:44, "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father . . . "
John 8:49, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me."
John 8:55, "and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I shall be a liar like you, but I do know Him, and keep His word."
Every time it was RELIGIOUS people who were called vipers and hypocrites and blind guides. Not once did Jesus speak harshly to a homosexual or an adulterer or a tax collector or lepers or Samaritans. Just RELIGIOUS people.
Listening to and following Jesus with regard to homosexuality
A good first step in trying to figure out what Jesus meant is to look at what he actually said—to find out what the context was in which he made his statement regarding judging.
This saying is found in both Matthew and Luke, as follows:
Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get [Mt. 7.1-2].
Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back [Lk. 6:37-38].
In both Matthew and Luke, the statements that follow the prohibition on judging indicate that it is an elaboration of the Golden Rule—the idea that we should treat others the way that we, ourselves, want to be treated.
The Golden Rule is, in fact, given its classical formulation just a few verses after the statement on judging in the Sermon on the Mount:
So in EVERYTHING, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets [Matt. 7:12]. There is your OT law summed up. Period. By Jesus, not Paul.
And the warning that we will be treated (i.e., God will treat us) as we have treated others has already been stressed in the Sermon:
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses [Mt. 5:14-15].
We see the same principles that Jesus stressed in the prohibition on judging also stressed elsewhere, and that helps us understand what the prohibition on judging means.
Who is he saying may judge us? He’s using a form of expression that Bible scholars refer to as “the divine passive” or “the theological passive.” This is a use of the passive voice that describes what God will do, but it reverently avoids saying “God.”
It isn’t a question of escaping God’s judgment. It’s a question of how we will be judged. Because, the Golden Rule has divine backing: If we treat others mercifully, God will be merciful to us. But if we treat others unmercifully, God will not be merciful to us.
In other words, we should treat others the way we want God to treat us—because the way we treat others is how God will treat us.
So jeffbase40 and tthttf, do you desire people to call you an abomination. Do you desire people to refuse you service for anything or to deny you the right to worship in a church? Do you desire to be beaten just for being you, to be threatened with having your family taken away from you? Do you desire to be sneered at, be threatened with legal execution in ten nations of the world. Do you desire to be imprisoned for up to ten years in another fifty or so nations?
If you don't, then change your attitude toward homosexuals. They don't need your praise or pat on the back. They just need you to get out of the way and let them lead the lives God has given them. Some of them will be your neighbors in heaven---if you make it there.
A good first step in trying to figure out what Jesus meant is to look at what he actually said—to find out what the context was in which he made his statement regarding judging.
This saying is found in both Matthew and Luke, as follows:
Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get [Mt. 7.1-2].
Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back [Lk. 6:37-38].
In both Matthew and Luke, the statements that follow the prohibition on judging indicate that it is an elaboration of the Golden Rule—the idea that we should treat others the way that we, ourselves, want to be treated.
The Golden Rule is, in fact, given its classical formulation just a few verses after the statement on judging in the Sermon on the Mount:
So in EVERYTHING, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets [Matt. 7:12]. There is your OT law summed up. Period. By Jesus, not Paul.
And the warning that we will be treated (i.e., God will treat us) as we have treated others has already been stressed in the Sermon:
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses [Mt. 5:14-15].
We see the same principles that Jesus stressed in the prohibition on judging also stressed elsewhere, and that helps us understand what the prohibition on judging means.
Who is he saying may judge us? He’s using a form of expression that Bible scholars refer to as “the divine passive” or “the theological passive.” This is a use of the passive voice that describes what God will do, but it reverently avoids saying “God.”
It isn’t a question of escaping God’s judgment. It’s a question of how we will be judged. Because, the Golden Rule has divine backing: If we treat others mercifully, God will be merciful to us. But if we treat others unmercifully, God will not be merciful to us.
In other words, we should treat others the way we want God to treat us—because the way we treat others is how God will treat us.
So jeffbase40 and tthttf, do you desire people to call you an abomination. Do you desire people to refuse you service for anything or to deny you the right to worship in a church? Do you desire to be beaten just for being you, to be threatened with having your family taken away from you? Do you desire to be sneered at, be threatened with legal execution in ten nations of the world. Do you desire to be imprisoned for up to ten years in another fifty or so nations?
If you don't, then change your attitude toward homosexuals. They don't need your praise or pat on the back. They just need you to get out of the way and let them lead the lives God has given them. Some of them will be your neighbors in heaven---if you make it there.
A good first step in trying to figure out what Jesus meant is to look at what he actually said—to find out what the context was in which he made his statement regarding judging.
This saying is found in both Matthew and Luke, as follows:
Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get [Mt. 7.1-2].
Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back [Lk. 6:37-38].
In both Matthew and Luke, the statements that follow the prohibition on judging indicate that it is an elaboration of the Golden Rule—the idea that we should treat others the way that we, ourselves, want to be treated.
The Golden Rule is, in fact, given its classical formulation just a few verses after the statement on judging in the Sermon on the Mount:
So in EVERYTHING, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets [Matt. 7:12]. There is your OT law summed up. Period. By Jesus, not Paul.
And the warning that we will be treated (i.e., God will treat us) as we have treated others has already been stressed in the Sermon:
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses [Mt. 5:14-15].
We see the same principles that Jesus stressed in the prohibition on judging also stressed elsewhere, and that helps us understand what the prohibition on judging means.
Who is he saying may judge us? He’s using a form of expression that Bible scholars refer to as “the divine passive” or “the theological passive.” This is a use of the passive voice that describes what God will do, but it reverently avoids saying “God.”
It isn’t a question of escaping God’s judgment. It’s a question of how we will be judged. Because, the Golden Rule has divine backing: If we treat others mercifully, God will be merciful to us. But if we treat others unmercifully, God will not be merciful to us.
In other words, we should treat others the way we want God to treat us—because the way we treat others is how God will treat us.
So jeffbase40 and tthttf, do you desire people to call you an abomination. Do you desire people to refuse you service for anything or to deny you the right to worship in a church? Do you desire to be beaten just for being you, to be threatened with having your family taken away from you? Do you desire to be sneered at, be threatened with legal execution in ten nations of the world. Do you desire to be imprisoned for up to ten years in another fifty or so nations?
If you don't, then change your attitude toward homosexuals. They don't need your praise or pat on the back. They just need you to get out of the way and let them lead the lives God has given them. Some of them will be your neighbors in heaven---if you make it there.
Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
"No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," declared Jesus.
Go back and read post 915. That was Jesus speaking to you.
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Listening to and following Jesus with regard to homosexuality
