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I think you are being unnecessarily pejorative about the word "faith." Perhaps we need to dial it back a bit and acknowledge that it is necessary to operate on faith (generic) in many, many matters because we have NOT individually verified everything ourselves. Will you at least grant that? I am certain you have not personally verified everything you believe about what has been discovered by science, right? What would you call the basis of your acceptance if not faith? I do understand that you do not credit ANY religious writings as valid sources of information about anything, let alone God. So I can understand your disdain for any reliance on such sources as the basis for faith in them. But generically, it is the same phenomenon . . . faith . . . that is operative. The difference is in what are deemed reliable sources.
I appreciate your attempt for a civil discussion.
Your analogy as to why I accept science that I have not personally verified as faith is not an accurate representation of what is really going on.
Of course I have not personally verified all the science I believe in. This has nothing to do with faith. It has to do with trust and the ability to reason and understand. I trust the scientific communities work...because I know how rigorous of a process it takes to bring scientific discoveries into practice. I have witnessed scientific processes at work my entire life. I have applied scientific principals to my everyday life for as long as I can recall. I have a career built upon advancing scientific discoveries that save lives. I am currently witnessing and working with the advanced molecular diagnostics that have come into light recently. Science works and there is no denying it. It's not difficult to look around and realize that much of what we know and understand about the world around us was discovered by science. Empirical evidence is the best explanation for what we currently know and understand about the Universe as well as ourselves and the world we live in.
On the other hand I have no trust of the religious communities...for obvious reasons. The bible is a vile, awful, immoral, and horrible piece of work. It's completely inadequate on all levels...scientifically, historically, medically, aesthetically, ethically, spiritually, contemplatively. It is not the best book we have on any topic, and it should be if it were written by the creator of the Universe. Especially a book that you place your faith in.
All of the science that I believe in has been verified by others on numerous accounts. What is great about peer reviewed scientific papers is that they are required to list the Materials and Methods used. This is done purposely so that other scientists can reproduce the experiment if they don't believe the claims. Scientific discovery is highly scrutinized by scientists from all around the globe. If anyone is trying to deceive it will be discovered very quickly and discredited. That is what is so great about the Scientific Method and independent peer reviews.
Religious faith has never been verified.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Personal experience can be the most powerful source of information and faith . . . but they are not scientifically verifiable. I suspect you would even distrust your own experiences should they involve God. I have had others tell me they would even consider themselves crazy, if they experienced something that caused them to believe in God.
And I completely agree here. I also have had many experiences throughout my life that many would see as blessings. I have had experiences that others would call paranormal (Lucid Dreaming and very strong and accurate intuition), when in fact these are not paranormal experiences. There are innate qualities that we all have within us. Most humans never tap into these innate qualities.
However I don't give credit to a man created God for these experiences and innate gifts that I possess.
I also believe in spiritual phenomena that cannot be proven scientifically...at least at this time.
However the concept of the God that most worship or talk about is just nonsense.
It would help if all the people that are using the word God explain what they mean by that word. Everyone who claims to believe in a God, has a different definition. This is why the God Theory could never be proven. There are too many versions of this supposed God to even form a hypothesis.
Come on Jerwade, you know that just because he was the 3rd poster from the top that this is not settling for 3rd place. Cath Ennis only has 6 up-votes and Joshua Engel has 11.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
DNA can be seen as analagous to an architect's blueprint - a set of instructions to create a living organism from a single cell. ~ Cath Ennis
This is where Cath gets it wrong. DNA is not a blue-print but rather a recipe. There are several papers and articles that go over why calling DNA a blue-print is inaccurate.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
Do you see the intelligent agent, when things are compared.
No since DNA is not magical nor intelligent. Non-DNA life exists just as a rock forms without DNA by way of it's own chemistry. Same thing is seen with crystal growth...it does not involve DNA but yet it grows by way of it's chemical properties. DNA is only passed on during reproduction...this is simply how life propagates. It's not magical. If our DNA was not passed on from generation to generation the species will become extinct. Life on this planet is driven by survival...the only way to ensure that a species survives is to pass on it's DNA.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
Throwing a steak on the Barbie, slightly seared on both sides - extremely rare is a personal preference of mine.
You would be surprised at how many other people prefer this as well.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
Sentient beings, as we are capable of perceiving and feeling, experiencing and reasoning.
I totally agree.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
...read my profile, if you haven't already. There is no need to be condescending.
I meant no harm and was not in any way intending to come off as condescending. When I mentioned the difficulty in discussing complex scientific principals to a non-scientist...that was in no way meant as an insult or condescending. My sincere apologies if that is how you took it.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
I am well educated, but I do appreciate your thoughtfulness to direct me.
The questions were designed to give you some time to think for yourself.
I am not sure why you think those questions were needed for me to think about for myself?
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
It takes a great deal of faith to believe that things happened randomly, or by chance.
No it does not. It simply takes understanding how things work in our Universe and on this planet.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
Apparently, you are a person who believes that nothing is known, or can be known of the existence or nature of God - beyond the material phenomena. You claim neither faith, nor disbelief in God.
Again it would be helpful if you could define exactly what you mean by the word God. Everyone has a different interpretation. I believe there is no grand daddy all powerful God. There is plenty of evidence to disprove this type of God.
I believe in a spirit world which includes Guardian Angles, Spirit Guides, and Nature Spirits. I have these beliefs based on personal experiences and nothing more. I never try to impose my spiritual beliefs on others nor expect them to understand them. Our spiritual journey is personal and only we can interpret our experiences. I meditate, exercise, and eat very healthy in order to maintain a healthy and balanced mind body and spirit. Meditation is also useful in helping to establishing inner peace and finding answers. It takes a lot of discipline and constant work to maintain a healthy mind body and spirit. It's simply not just having faith or believing in man created religions. It's about experiencing it for yourself. Finding your own answers...walking to the beat of your own drum.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
Yet, you have not identified what it is that you personally consider to be this intelligent force that operates in this world, or universe. That which may be responsible for life itself?
I don't see it as an intelligent force for several reasons. I will list only a few...even though there are many more.
The Planet is not a perfectly stable place and has undergone many natural life cycles that simply follow the laws of physics and natural occurrences.
If there was ID behind everything then it has failed.
Why would an ID create deadly bacteria and viruses? It took and still takes scientists to combat these bugs. It took years and years of scientists working hard to find ways to combat these bugs that have been around since the beginning of our plants formation. Even today researchers are still working hard to keep one step ahead of these bugs. It's a constant war.
Why would an ID create these bugs at a time when humans had no knowledge or understanding of what these bugs were or even how to help themselves or their loved ones from being infected and killed by these bugs?
Why would an ID create a sun that the Earth must have in order to sustain life...that will eventually die? When that happens Earth will no longer exist.
Why would an ID create humans that can only exist on about 25% of this planet but create species that can only exist on the remaining 75% of the planet? Humans are rapidly destroying the 25% that we as well as all other land plants and animals exits. Does not sound like ID going on to me.
Why would an ID create species of which 99% eventually go extinct? This is a vicious continuous cycle.
There are so many horrific things on planet Earth that make no rational sense as to why an ID would have created it.
However we know through science the how and why these things exist. We have a very good idea of how the Planet formed and life evolved. We understand how things become extinct as well as the why the Earth undergoes these natural life-cycles.
I totally understand that people are very reluctant to let go of traditions and rituals. It takes centuries for a shift in consciousness to occur. Thankfully we are beginning to see this happen.
You missed the entire point. The day of resurrection is less a problem than who was there!!! Was it just Mary or were there other women, the gospels differ. Was there a single angel who flew down and opened the tomb, or did the women arrive to find the tomb open and a young man inside? Or was it two angels? Depends on what gospel you read.
And you are going to be tempted to create a story---an addendum to the gospels---that purports to "explain" the obvious differences. That can only work if you declare your explanation to have the same credibility that you give to scripture.
I don't have any doctrine but the two Great Commandments. I don't care about any "tenets" of faith. All of them come from one kind of Pharisee or another. If one worships the bible, he gets very defensive when someone else comes along and says Jonah being swallowed by a whale is allegorical and the message is what is important anyway. There are those on CD today that would be shocked to know that one of the earliest church fathers, Origen, said the entire Garden of Eden story was an allegory---and asked who would be so foolish as to believe otherwise.
I've posted many of the contradictions, the failed prophecies, the flat out change in views from one prophet to another on numerous threads and fundamentalists do nothing but fail to respond or create those stories that are nowhere to be found in scripture.
Guess what---I'm still a believer. A born again, Jesus follower. I don't need to use the bible as a crutch for my faith because once I found Christ He showed me I already have all my instructions written in the fleshly tablets of my heart.
I suppose if one has nothing written on their heart, they feel a great need to see a black and white rulebook.
Come on Jerwade, you know that just because he was the 3rd poster from the top that this is not settling for 3rd place. Cath Ennis only has 6 up-votes and Joshua Engel has 11.
I wasn't impressed and popularity has nothing to do with it.
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This is where Cath gets it wrong. DNA is not a blue-print but rather a recipe. There are several papers and articles that go over why calling DNA a blue-print is inaccurate.
The cook is in the kitchen, which the architect designed.
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No since DNA is not magical nor intelligent. Non-DNA life exists just as a rock forms without DNA by way of it's own chemistry. Same thing is seen with crystal growth...it does not involve DNA but yet it grows by way of it's chemical properties. DNA is only passed on during reproduction...this is simply how life propagates. It's not magical. If our DNA was not passed on from generation to generation the species will become extinct. Life on this planet is driven by survival...the only way to ensure that a species survives is to pass on it's DNA.
A rock is incapable of reasoning and the crystal has no synaptic activity.
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I meant no harm and was not in any way intending to come off as condescending. When I mentioned the difficulty in discussing complex scientific principals to a non-scientist...that was in no way meant as an insult or condescending. My sincere apologies if that is how you took it.
Apology accepted, although it had nothing to do with scientific principals.
It had more to do with the demeanor and attitude of patronizing.
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It simply takes understanding how things work in our Universe and on this planet.
Let's see if that changes, or holds true in another 3,000 years of growth and development.
What we comprehend today is fine, but will most likely change in the future.
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Again it would be helpful if you could define exactly what you mean by the word God. Everyone has a different interpretation. I believe there is no grand daddy all powerful God. There is plenty of evidence to disprove this type of God.
But you cannot disprove an intelligent design from whence all thing have been created.
A computer program is not the sum of simple instructions, it takes a certain intelligence.
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I believe in a spirit world which includes Guardian Angles, Spirit Guides, and Nature Spirits. I have these beliefs based on personal experiences and nothing more. I never try to impose my spiritual beliefs on others nor expect them to understand them. Our spiritual journey is personal and only we can interpret our experiences. I meditate, exercise, and eat very healthy in order to maintain a healthy and balanced mind body and spirit. Meditation is also useful in helping to establishing inner peace and finding answers. It takes a lot of discipline and constant work to maintain a healthy mind body and spirit. It's simply not just having faith or believing in man created stories. It's about experiencing it for yourself. Finding your own answers...walking to the beat of your own drum.
Every journey begins with a first step; and every step is a new journey.
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I don't see it as an intelligent force for several reasons. I will list only a few...even though there are many more.
The Planet is not a perfectly stable place and has undergone many natural life cycles that simply follow the laws of physics and natural occurrences.
If there was ID behind everything then it has failed.
Why would an ID create deadly bacteria and viruses? It took and still takes scientists to combat these bugs. It took years and years of scientist working hard to find ways to combat these bugs that have been around since the beginning of time of the formation of this planet. Even today researchers are still working hard to keep on step ahead of these bugs. It's a constant war.
Why would an ID create this at a time when humans had no knowledge or understanding of what these bugs were?
Why would an ID create a sun that the Earth must have...that will eventually die? When that happens Earth will no longer exist.
Why would an ID create species which 99% eventually go extinct?
There are so many horrific things on planet Earth that make no rational sense as to why an ID would have created it.
However we know through science the how and why these things exist. Why have a very good idea of how the Planet formed and life evolved. We understand how things become extinct as well as the why the Earth undergoes these natural life-cycles.
There is a saying: It's not always what happens to us, as much as how we respond to it.
I wasn't impressed and popularity has nothing to do with it.
I really liked Joshua's response...I though it was spot on.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
The cook is in the kitchen, which the architect designed.
I would be happy to offer up some DNA lessons or at least point you to very good academic text books on this subject.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
A rock is incapable of reasoning and the crystal has no synaptic activity.
True but that was not my point.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
Apology accepted, although it had nothing to do with scientific principals.
It had more to do with the demeanor and attitude of patronizing.
Again that was not my intention.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
Let's see if that changes, or holds true in another 3,000 years of growth and development. What we comprehend today is fine, but will most likely change in the future.
There's no doubt about that...we have barley scratched the surface with respect to checking out Outer Space or even discovering all the life in the ocean. Or understanding Near Death Experiences, and Outer Body Experiences.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
But you cannot disprove an intelligent design from whence all thing have been created.
Sure I can.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
A computer program is not the sum of simple instructions, it takes a certain intelligence.
A computer program is only designed by humans who had to learn this skill. They were not born with this knowledge, they had to learn it. This has nothing to do with the concept ID.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
Every journey begins with a first step; and every step is a new journey.
And sometimes a journey begins by total unexpected surprise, almost as if you are being yanked back onto your path. At least that's how many of my journeys have been.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
There is a saying: It's not always what happens to us, as much as how we respond to it.
I like to see it as...it's not your fault...but it's still your problem, and I better find a sensible way to deal with it. Which is another way of saying what you said.
points one and two: DNA/RNA is a self replicating probability code that would be able to adjust to changes in the system in which it resides. The solutions that DNA would incorporate into the organism would be based on energy consumption and the nature of the ecosystem in which it lives. The program would then feedback on itself, and the environment, to help sustain and maintian the system for future changes and reproductions. A-la The von Neumann probe.
Points 3 and 4: we do not have enough information on who it is. But the attributes would have at least some similarities' to that of a human. Similar two how we can see some human traits in a dog. Actually a bog has more than most think. The periodic table shows interactions that allow for emergent property to arise unexpectedly due to the lack of information we have. But we are learning. If we are in its image then that image is the periodic table.
"random" does not prove no god anymore than "evolution" does. If we believe in 'random" as proving "no nothing" we are just another "belief system" that counters observations. Add it to the list.
Last edited by Arach Angle; 07-17-2015 at 07:03 AM..
I think you are being unnecessarily pejorative about the word "faith." Perhaps we need to dial it back a bit and acknowledge that it is necessary to operate on faith (generic) in many, many matters because we have NOT individually verified everything ourselves. Will you at least grant that? I am certain you have not personally verified everything you believe about what has been discovered by science, right? What would you call the basis of your acceptance if not faith? I do understand that you do not credit ANY religious writings as valid sources of information about anything, let alone God. So I can understand your disdain for any reliance on such sources as the basis for faith in them. But generically, it is the same phenomenon . . . faith . . . that is operative. The difference is in what are deemed reliable sources. Personal experience can be the most powerful source of information and faith . . . but they are not scientifically verifiable. I suspect you would even distrust your own experiences should they involve God. I have had others tell me they would even consider themselves crazy, if they experienced something that caused them to believe in God.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
An Intelligent Agent is verifiable; and testable.
Especially, if you consider the human design.
We need to be careful with the many uses of the word intelligent, Jer. The human body has many features that not only do not make sense but would indicate a very poor intelligence designed them. Do you see what I did there? i used intelligence as if it mandated perfection or optimality in design. There is far too much evidence that belies that use. This is why I try to avoid the ID label. That and the fact that it has been associated with the Creationism movement and thoroughly discredited in court as an attempt to infiltrate religion into science curricula. Nevertheless, the existence of any consistent template for life that affects the designs life can take belies any notion of acausal origins in chaos or randomness, IMO. Whether or not there is any intellectual advantage or mileage to using Intelligent Design as the label is moot.
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Originally Posted by Matadora
I appreciate your attempt for a civil discussion.
<snip>
I also have had many experiences throughout my life that many would see as blessings. I have had experiences that others would call paranormal (Lucid Dreaming and very strong and accurate intuition), when in fact these are not paranormal experiences. There are innate qualities that we all have within us. Most humans never tap into these innate qualities.
However I don't give credit to a man created God for these experiences and innate gifts that I possess.
I also believe in spiritual phenomena that cannot be proven scientifically...at least at this time.
However the concept of the God that most worship or talk about is just nonsense.
It would help if all the people that are using the word God explain what they mean by that word. Everyone who claims to believe in a God, has a different definition. This is why the God Theory could never be proven. There are too many versions of this supposed God to even form a hypothesis.
You are quickly joining Jerwade as one of my favorite people to discuss these issues with. There is much we do not know about our reality and what it is comprised of, especially since we now know that our brain does sense external fields without using our normal sensory system. Since our entire reality is composed of fields, the implications are legion. We agree that the myriad beliefs ABOUT God and their ramifications are the primary stumbling blocks to God belief. The belief in God, per se, has few implications for others. It is when it is used to try to proscribe and prescribe the behaviors of others that it becomes troublesome.
This planet is perfectly designed for it's purpose.
It contains life in every aspect of its growth and development. The Earth is living; and breathing beneath our feet.
Your fortune cookie mind is awesome, Jer. Your skill in composing concise and cogent posts is admirable.
Your fortune cookie mind is awesome, Jer.
Your skill in composing concise and cogent posts is admirable.
Some would say, it's too cryptic.
And there are no secret decoder rings.
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Right on, brother! 
Your skill in composing concise and cogent posts is admirable.
