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How exactly am I supposed to trust a book that has notoriously been tampered with several times throughout history?
If you're raised in a "the Bible is infallible and pure and perfect" culture, then the realization that the Bible just ain't perfect is a crushing revelation. This is one of the reasons that those very teachings do so much harm IMHO. You're either a seldom-to-never Bible reader who is never going to notice the Bible's flaws ... but if you happen to take the time to really study the scriptures you're going to encounter flaws. Lots of them. Those groups who elevate the Bible to an immaculate and perfected object of worship will often live the rest of their lives in denial of course. For the rest, there is a very real feeling of betrayal and disillusionment. The Bible is a very good thing and a very good book, yet those touting it as infallible, pure and perfect have painted themselves into a corner, forcing the Bible to be something that it just isn't. Mike and others like to throw around statements like "the only errors are spelling and grammar errors" and things like that, yet the standard of "infallible, pure and perfect" doesn't leave room for even errors in grammar. Thusly, from that all-or-nothing perspective, if any error no matter how trivial in the Bible can be detected then it must be false in its entirety.
That is part of why I hate the doctrines of Bible purists. They're setting people up to have their faith crushed out of them.
Reality: While the Bible isn't perfect, it is remarkably well preserved and authentic for such an old literary work. By historical standards, it is excellent. Taken in its entirety and read through with the purpose of finding direction and guidance in one's life, the Bible's impact on people and their behaviors it astoundingly positive. Why? Not because the paper and ink of the Bible itself is divine, but because it points humankind towards the God. God really is perfect, infallible and pure. God really can make bad men good and good men better. If you set you faith in the Bible, you're likely to be disappointed because it is imperfect. The vengeful scary God of the OT, the Johannine Comma, hundreds of thousands of textual variances, etc -- these verifiable issues seriously strain the Biblical purist's faith.
The simple realization that the Bible doesn't need to be perfect for God to be real and incomprehensibly wonderful is quite liberating. After finding God and continuing to read the Bible with the understanding that while it is mostly true, there are flaws, can continue to strengthen your relationship with God. Imperfections in the Bible exist because the Bible was written and handed down by men. It is impossible to expect men such as Moses, Abraham, Peter and Isaiah to truly comprehend an infinite God who is by His very nature incomprehensible. And in being recopied for so many centuries, their words cannot have helped but to have encountered human error and even a good bit of humans with agendas. Yet the Bible still unfailingly encourages us to experience the Divine for ourselves. Thusly, their words from God stepping stool elevating us so that we like them might experience God as He really is.
Last edited by godofthunder9010; 07-10-2015 at 05:51 PM..
Faith is believing in the words of Jesus. Faith is believing He is the Way to His Father. Faith is believing He is the Truth of His Father. Faith is believing He is the example of the Life you should have before His Father while your here on this planet. Put you're complete life in the Hands of Jesus. Pray to Him. Believe what He says. Believe HE is the 'Gift God sent to REDEEM Us. No religion will save you. No man can save you. No organization can save you. ~only Jesus.
If you encounter someone who questions or doubts the accuracy and reliability of our New Testament, such as a Mormon, the information Dr. Daniel Wallace provides in this presentation at Heights Baptist Church in 2013 will address those issues directly.
Mormon apologists must admit that the staggering majority of the textual variants are merely minor in nature. Dr. R. L. Anderson, a Mormon scholar and authority in the LDS Church on Biblical manuscripts, recognizes that the variations in the New Testament manuscripts are essentially insignificant. Dr. Anderson notes the overwhelming agreement between the thousands of manuscripts; he explains that "...all manuscripts agree on the essential correctness of 99% of the verses in the New Testament." R.L. Anderson, Fourteenth Annual Symposium of the Archaeology of the Scriptures, Brigham Young University, 1963, 52-59
Good grief Mike555 why are you so obsessed with Mormons? They preach Christ and they do it from the Bible. You seem to be painting them as anti-Biblical atheists. Whatever the source of their view of the Bible, it is a realistic view. For any Mormon I have ever known, the Bible isn't perfect but it is good and came from God.
Their founder obviously came to the same conclusion that so many others have before and since: The Bible just plain isn't infallible, sufficient and pure. Clearly more is needed than the paper and ink of the Bible. Now from your all-or-nothing view of the Bible, that may sound like a rejection of the Bible. It isn't. I think we both know perfectly well that the Bible is a huge part of the Mormon religion.
Mormonism's rejection of both Trinity and Biblical purism seems to bother you far more than makes any sense. Why is that? Why the obsession Mike555??
Faith is believing in the words of Jesus. Faith is believing He is the Way to His Father. Faith is believing He is the Truth of His Father. Faith is believing He is the example of the Life you should have before His Father while your here on this planet. Put you're complete life in the Hands of Jesus. Pray to Him. Believe what He says. Believe HE is the 'Gift God sent to REDEEM Us. No religion will save you. No man can save you. No organization can save you. ~only Jesus.
Jesus has nothing to do with our innate ability to cultivate love and compassion for yourself and others.
There is no need to believe in this nonsense in order to cultivate love and compassion for yourself and others.
Get over your brainwashing and find your own way to cultivate love and compassion for yourself and others.
Our complete life is in our own hands.
All that you are saying is rubbish and has nothing to do with cultivating love and compassion for yourself and others.
Jesus has nothing to do with our innate ability to cultivate love and compassion for yourself and others.
There is no need to believe in this nonsense in order to cultivate love and compassion for yourself and others.
Get over your brainwashing and find your own way to cultivate love and compassion for yourself and others.
Our complete life is in our own hands.
All that you are saying is rubbish and has nothing to do with cultivating love and compassion for yourself and others.
When you walk in love you walk in God and God in you, so whether you know it or not Matadora when you cultivate love and compassion for others you are cultivating godliness.
If you encounter someone who questions or doubts the accuracy and reliability of our New Testament, such as a Mormon, the information Dr. Daniel Wallace provides in this presentation at Heights Baptist Church in 2013 will address those issues directly.
Mormon apologists must admit that the staggering majority of the textual variants are merely minor in nature. Dr. R. L. Anderson, a Mormon scholar and authority in the LDS Church on Biblical manuscripts, recognizes that the variations in the New Testament manuscripts are essentially insignificant. Dr. Anderson notes the overwhelming agreement between the thousands of manuscripts; he explains that "...all manuscripts agree on the essential correctness of 99% of the verses in the New Testament." R.L. Anderson, Fourteenth Annual Symposium of the Archaeology of the Scriptures, Brigham Young University, 1963, 52-59
Dr. Daniel B. Wallace has been Professor of New Testament Studies at Dallas Seminary for over 25 years and is an internationally known Greek New Testament scholar. He has been a consultant for five Bible translations and founded the Center for the study of New Testament Manuscripts.
In the Appendix of the paperback edition of Bart Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus, Ehrman quoting Ehrman actually admits...
"Essential Christian beliefs are not affected by textual variants in the manuscript tradition of the New Testament."
This is the skeptic on whose works Muslims, Mormons, other cultists & atheists are basing their wild & whacky claims.'
August 03, 2014 - Best Sermon Ever Series - Mars Hill Church
Dr. Daniel Wallace is one of the foremost New Testament scholars in the world today. In his Best Sermon Ever, he shares with Mars Hill important teaching on the origin of the New Testament and whether or not what we read in our Bible translations today is the same as what was written in the original manuscripts. If you or a friend have ever had doubts or questions about the validity of the New Testament, or the Bible in general, this is the sermon to watch.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
Good grief Mike555 why are you so obsessed with Mormons? They preach Christ and they do it from the Bible. You seem to be painting them as anti-Biblical atheists. Whatever the source of their view of the Bible, it is a realistic view. For any Mormon I have ever known, the Bible isn't perfect but it is good and came from God.
Their founder obviously came to the same conclusion that so many others have before and since: The Bible just plain isn't infallible, sufficient and pure. Clearly more is needed than the paper and ink of the Bible. Now from your all-or-nothing view of the Bible, that may sound like a rejection of the Bible. It isn't. I think we both know perfectly well that the Bible is a huge part of the Mormon religion.
Mormonism's rejection of both Trinity and Biblical purism seems to bother you far more than makes any sense. Why is that? Why the obsession Mike555??
What you are referring to are not my words (readers refer to post #3), but are the words of the person who posted to YouTube the video of Dan Wallace's presentation which he gave at Heights Baptist Church in 2013 on the reliability of the New Testament. Dr. Wallace never even mentioned the Mormons in his presentation. Nor did I post the comment for the purpose of bashing or focusing any attention on the Mormon's, or out of some 'obsession' with them. As with the second video, I simply posted the comment that was posted to the YouTube page along with the video in which Dr. Wallace speaks of New Testament reliability.
If you're raised in a "the Bible is infallible and pure and perfect" culture, then the realization that the Bible just ain't perfect is a crushing revelation. This is one of the reasons that those very teachings do so much harm IMHO. You're either a seldom-to-never Bible reader who is never going to notice the Bible's flaws ... but if you happen to take the time to really study the scriptures you're going to encounter flaws. Lots of them. Those groups who elevate the Bible to an immaculate and perfected object of worship will often live the rest of their lives in denial of course.For the rest, there is a very real feeling of betrayal and disillusionment. The Bible is a very good thing and a very good book, yet those touting it as infallible, pure and perfect have painted themselves into a corner, forcing the Bible to be something that it just isn't. Mike and others like to throw around statements like "the only errors are spelling and grammar errors" and things like that, yet the standard of "infallible, pure and perfect" doesn't leave room for even errors in grammar. Thusly, from that all-or-nothing perspective, if any error no matter how trivial in the Bible can be detected then it must be false in its entirety.
That is part of why I hate the doctrines of Bible purists. They're setting people up to have their faith crushed out of them. <snipped>
Couldn't agree more. Whether they realize it or not, whether they acknowledge it or not, those who push biblical infallibility and inerrancy are setting people up to make a book, rather than God, the foundation on which they build their faith and life. Talk about a slippery slope of sand.
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