If I have gay feelings, I must fight them? (accept, difference, believe)
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I have heard of women who have sex with male animals. According to the arguments I hear, this is fine because no one is harmed.
There is more to morality than just saying "everything is moral as long as it does not hurt anyone".
It's legal in 12 of your United States, including the great Christian state of Texas.
Maybe you and your fellow fundies should take a break from obsessing over homosexuals and see if you can stop those poor sheep and cows and dogs from being assaulted.
I have heard of women who have sex with male animals. According to the arguments I hear, this is fine because no one is harmed.
There is more to morality than just saying "everything is moral as long as it does not hurt anyone".
Then I am not sure which arguments you have heard because the vast majority of people arguing that things like SSM are ok are doing so on the basis of what is called "informed consent". Something no animal is capable of providing. So clearly the arguments you have been hearing, are different to the ones I have been reading.
So yes I wholly agree there is more to morality than simply saying it hurts no one. And "informed consent" is indeed one of those things. And the fact is no one has provided any moral arguments against the informed consent of two adults of the same sex engaging in sexual expression with one another.
Then I am not sure which arguments you have heard because the vast majority of people arguing that things like SSM are ok are doing so on the basis of what is called "informed consent". Something no animal is capable of providing. So clearly the arguments you have been hearing, are different to the ones I have been reading.
So yes I wholly agree there is more to morality than simply saying it hurts no one. And "informed consent" is indeed one of those things. And the fact is no one has provided any moral arguments against the informed consent of two adults of the same sex engaging in sexual expression with one another.
A male animal cannot be forced to perform sex acts, so why do you think they perform them? Are they hurt by it? Either way, it is just an example to show there is more to morality than saying "if it hurts no one, then its ok".
Someone said gays are born gay, and therefore their acts are moral, and I said I was born a liar, fornicator and an adulterer, but I do not use it to argue those acts are moral, or that I should be justified to satisfy those desires.
A male animal cannot be forced to perform sex acts, so why do you think they perform them? Are they hurt by it? Either way, it is just an example to show there is more to morality than saying "if it hurts no one, then its ok".
Someone said gays are born gay, and therefore their acts are moral, and I said I was born a liar, fornicator and an adulterer, but I do not use it to argue those acts are moral, or that I should be justified to satisfy those desires.
You're naive.
Of course a male animal can be forced (or trained) to perform sex acts. They are manually or orally stimulated first.
A male animal cannot be forced to perform sex acts, so why do you think they perform them? Are they hurt by it? Either way, it is just an example to show there is more to morality than saying "if it hurts no one, then its ok".
Someone said gays are born gay, and therefore their acts are moral, and I said I was born a liar, fornicator and an adulterer, but I do not use it to argue those acts are moral, or that I should be justified to satisfy those desires.
Ok, you may have been born a liar, but please speak for yourself. I will believe what the psalimist said, that i am reverently and wonderfully made. So for those of us who believe we are reverently and wonderfully made made, your poor analogy will not work on us, It may just work on the vulnerable,gullible, fearful and those who cannot think for themselves
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber Let me repeat, I was born an adulterer and a fornicator, because I wanted to have sex with as many girls as possible. I did not learn those desires, they were hard wired into my DNA. I am not making this up.
However, I am not using that hard-wiring as an excuse to justify those desires and make it look like it is morally proper to be an adulterer and a fornicator. The word of God is clear about adultery and fornication. It is sinful. I am not making an exception for myself saying it is ok because it was hard-wired into my DNA.
"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God"
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
In other words, the "I was born that way" argument is irrelevant.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
You were born a heterosexual, presumably. Did you feel that you needed to fight the attraction to women? Or just the excesses and unloving expressions of it?
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Originally Posted by katjonjj
Given his post, I would say he struggled(struggles) with the excesses and unloving expressions. I find it suspect that the homophobic Christian think all homosexual relationships are all about sex. They have the same proportion of committed relationships as heterosexuals. Also, I think the divorce rate of same-sex marriages is much lower!
Right. Finn is comparing apples and oranges here.
He agrees, I assume, that he was "born that way" in the case of being attracted to the opposite sex, but makes no effort to deny that attraction. He expects those who are born with a same-gender sexual orientation to accept that the sexual orientation they were born with is immoral, while his different-gender orientation is not.
You're mixing things up here, Finn. The valid "born that way" equivalency here is between your natural attraction to the opposite gender, and other people's attraction to the same gender.
The other valid comparison/equivalency would be between your desire to express your natural attraction to the opposite gender in excessive/unloving ways, and someone whose natural attraction to the same gender includes a desire to express that attraction in excessive/unloving ways.
A male animal cannot be forced to perform sex acts, so why do you think they perform them? Are they hurt by it? Either way, it is just an example to show there is more to morality than saying "if it hurts no one, then its ok".
I would have to agree in the case of male animals, I doubt that there is moral harm to them. The question then iswhether there is harm to the person involved and I wonder if satisfaction of those impulses may not be. In any case, informed consent is appropriate for human interaction and that is what we are dealing with. Speculation in other areas is a red herring.
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Someone said gays are born gay, and therefore their acts are moral, and I said I was born a liar, fornicator and an adulterer, but I do not use it to argue those acts are moral, or that I should be justified to satisfy those desires.
No one said that their acts are moral because they are born gay, we have said that their acts are not necessarily immoral just because they are gay. There is a world of difference and no one from the conservative side has demonstated why a homosexual relationship is different in that regard from a heterosexual one.
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