Is Jesus God or Son of God ? (prayer, Creator, baptism)

[HParr]

Originally Posted by Marianinark

He was talking to His Heavenly Father, the Almighty God, after all, He said " Father, forgive them for they know what they are doing." Jesus frequently prayed to His Heavenly Father.
I am sure He is still asking the Heavenly Father to forgive all that are rejecting or disobeying Him.

I love any discussion about our awesome God! Marianinark, I've always understood the Bible as you indicated in your reply, I suddenly flashed back to when I saw the "Passion of the Christ" at the Movie Theater, I cried when I saw that movie. I think that it was such a great movie to help us see more clearly and to remind us of what Jesus went through for us. I need to watch that movie again.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by Capt. Dan

But still no answer to the question. Who was Jesus talking to while he was dieing? Himself? I'm not trolling here. I honestly dont get it.

I guess a Jew would say that Jesus was praying to God, but a Christian would call the trinity a mystery; a dogma which cannot be explained rationally.

[Munich]

Okay, Tricky D, you are obviously not a fan of Christianity ;-)

Anyway, I interpret it like you, but that still makes me a Christian. All Christian denominations are based on interpretations of the Bible, so however you interpret it, it doesn't make you less Christian.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by Munich

Okay, Tricky D, you are obviously not a fan of Christianity ;-)

Nah I'm just not a fan of dogmas.

All Christian denominations are based on interpretations of the Bible, so however you interpret it, it doesn't make you less Christian.

And you're right, I don't call myself a Christian.
Just a follower of Jesus (because I'm also not a fan of organised religion).

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

The two natures of Jesus Philippians 2:6 - 8
1. very nature God (there is only one God)
2. nature of a servant

Jesus (Philippians 2:6-8) is the fulfillment of Isaiah 43:10, 11. "that I am he.

Israel's Only Savior
"and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
I, even I, am the LORD,
and apart from me there is no savior"

Its not Jesus saying he is God, it is God saying he is Jesus.

Can we understand how the relationship works - No
They work so well together we can not comprehend. They are like a Rolex watch. Each are their own gears, parts, functions, but still only one watch.

Nice. I'm sorry that I can't read each and every post on this thread, but this one best explains it for me.

I'm Christian, so that's why I came to this thread. To the OPs question, I would say that in my own limited way of answering this; Jesus is The Word, God in the Flesh, God that died for you, and the Son.

Confusing, yes. The Trinity is a relational thing and it just is what it is. That your brain doesn't "get it all" is just the way it is too. It's like taking three people and chaining them down and letting them look at a part of an elephant. What does the elephant look like? It's a huge gray ear. It's a huge gray snout. It's a huge gray trunk.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by McGowdog

That your brain doesn't "get it all" is just the way it is too. It's like taking three people and chaining them down and letting them look at a part of an elephant. What does the elephant look like? It's a huge gray ear. It's a huge gray snout. It's a huge gray trunk.

The problem with this analogy is that 2/3 of the elephant (God and the Holy Spirit) are not corporeal (are abstract constructs), while an elephant is just 1 body and the 3 blind guys can only feel parts of that body.
So the difference is that the 3 guys can't see the elephant in its entirety, while we can only see Jesus (if he was alive) and not God and the Holy Spirit.

[McGowdog]

Well there ya go...thinkin' again.

You're right. I think they're supposed to be blind or something.

I guess what I was trying to say was, "To experience God, you've got to be out of your mind."

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by McGowdog

"To experience God, you've got to be out of your mind."

Who said I wasn't?

[McGowdog]

Ha! Good answer. A Spiritual Giant you are.

[onehappyangel]

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

I would love to hear how at Jesus' baptism and at the transfiguration on the mount the Father is separate.

Then explain how Jesus sits at the right hand side of Himself.

Then explain for those that believe in the virgin birth how the Holy Spirit does the deed and conceives Jesus.

Do not just defer to trinity (a myth) and Omnipresence.

Explain the difference in Son of man and Son of God.

Explain who the early church baptised in the name of.

Explain then why Jesus taught us to pray to the Father and not to Himself.

BTW regarding angels worshipping Him.

G32 αγγελος aggelos ang'-el-os
From αγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.

I have determined and feel I have come up with some substantial proof that Jesus was God in human form. Please read on and allow me to show it with proof of scripture. I will be referencing and writing scripture throughout this letter, and I will add a few notes also.

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. (2 Corinthians 4:4) ([/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]Colossians 1:14-17)[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] [/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]...For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. (Colossians 2:9) (1 Timothy 3:16)[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=4][FONT=Arial][SIZE=4][/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][FONT=Arial][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]John answered them, saying I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John 1:26 KJV) (John 5:18, John 1:10)[/SIZE][/FONT]
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Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up. (John 2:19 KJV) (Also, refer to John 10:18, 1 Peter 3:18)

Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. (1 Corinthians 11:3)

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]"May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,"([/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][URL="http://www.city-data.com/kjv/Heb/Heb_13.htm//l20"][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Heb. 13:20[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/URL][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]) [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Jesus' Temple (Body) was destroyed (John 19:30, Matthew 27:50)[/SIZE][/FONT]
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Jesus' Body was raised up in three days (John 20:1-29, Matthew 28:7-10)

Jesus did ascend up into heaven (21:1-25, Luke 24:51, Mark 16:19), and will descend from heaven in the same manner; this is noted in 1 Thessolonians 4:16, Revelation 1:7, Luke 21:27, Mark 13:26.

Therefore prophecy was fulfilled, and he(Jesus) spoke it in scripture, and fulfilled what was said in John 2:19

God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. (John 4:24-26, Isaiah 41:4)

Jesus proclaimed to be the Messiah in John 4:24-26.

But unto the Son [he saith], Thy [URL="http://www.city-data.com/library/topics/topic1885.htm"]throne[/URL], O [URL="http://www.city-data.com/library/topics/topic830.htm"]God[/URL], [is] for ever and ever: a [URL="http://www.city-data.com/library/topics/topic1666.htm"]sceptre[/URL] of [URL="http://www.city-data.com/library/topics/topic1592.htm"]righteousness[/URL] [is] the [URL="http://www.city-data.com/library/topics/topic1666.htm"]sceptre[/URL] of thy [URL="http://www.city-data.com/library/topics/topic1125.htm"]kingdom[/URL]. (Hebrews 1:8)
Therefore the jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broke the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. (John 5:18) (Also see John 5:19-30)

Then said they unto him, where is thy Father? Jesus answered, ye neither know me, nor my father: If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. (John 8:19) (Also see John 8:29, John 8:42, Matthew 11:27)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him(God); and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

He(Jesus;the true light) was in the World, and the World was made by him(Jesus), and the World knew him not. (John 1:10) (refer to Genesis 1:1, John 1:26, John 8:12)

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Genesis 1:1 KJV) (Hebrews 1:2-3)

"For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."([URL="http://www.city-data.com/kjv/Col/col_1.htm//lWho"]Col. 1:16-17[/URL])

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]"The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life."([/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][URL="http://www.city-data.com/kjv/Job/Job_33.htm//lThe"][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Job 33:4[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/URL][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]) [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2] [/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Verdana]"Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom."([/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][URL="http://www.city-data.com/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_40.htm//l26"][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Isaiah 40:28[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/URL][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2])[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
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[SIZE=2][FONT=Verdana][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]The above not only states that Jesus made the World, in the book of Genesis God claims to have made the very same World.

And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" which means, "God with us." (Matthew 1:23)

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom(heart) of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18 KJV)

I repeat,

No one has ever seen God. But his only Son who is himself God, is near to the Father's heart; he has told us about him. (John 1:18 NLT)

All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. (Luke 10:22)

I've two exceptions to this. This is as follows, "And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the Garden in the cool of the day. And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?" (Genesis 3:8-9)

And the second exception is in Genesis 18, where three men appeared to Abraham, and the Lord spoke about child bearing.

Now back to Jesus!

Now we know from commandment that we are not to tempt the Lord thy God. In the book of Matthew, Jesus once again, gives a clear indication that he is the one not to be tempted. Jesus states this after being tempted by Satan in the wilderness:

and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:
‘ He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and,
‘ In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’" Jesus said to him, "It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’" (Matthew 4:6-7, Deuteronomy 6:16)

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (I Timothy 2:5)

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:6)

At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and You in me, and I in you. (John 14:20) (Also refer to John 17:11, John 17:21)

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again to you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: For my Father is greater that I. (John 14:28)

He that hateth me hateth my Father also. (John 15:23)

Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58)

Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Jesus Clearly states equality with his Father here, and Jesus states his power and authority:

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are One. (John 10:29-30) (refer to John 10:38)

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. (Philipians 2:5-8)

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also; and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him(Jesus), Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth with us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been with so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hast seen me has seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or believe me for the very works' sake. (John 14:7-11)

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (John 14:1-3)

Jesus clearly states this:

All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. (John 16:15)

It is clear that in John 16:15 Jesus declares that he is equal with his Father(YHWH, YHVH, JEHOVAH, the Creator, God Almighty).
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, [SIZE=4]Christ the power of God[/SIZE], and the wisdom of God. (1 Corinthians 1:24)

so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God. (1 Corinthians 2:5)

I came forth from the Father, and am come into the World: again, I leave the World, and go to the Father. (John 16:28)

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the World was. (John 17:5)

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: (Hebrews 9:24)

From the book of John at John 17:5, it may seem that from this statement that Jesus declares that him and his Father are two seperate spiritual beings. But clearly in other passages it is shown that the Father and Jesus are One in the Same, and that there is only One God. So what can be drawn from this statement? That Jesus was seperated from his spiritual Godly form due to his confinement in human Godly form. What a sacrifice that must have been for God. Even though Jesus and the Father were within one another, they were seperated between the barriers of the physical(seen) realm and the spiritual(unseen by the physical) heavenly realm. No wonder Jesus anticipated his return to his Father. A body would have felt like a prison in comparison to the freedom of being a spiritual and heavenly being.

Now in conclusion I would like to make a few more important connections out of scripture.

God will Judge man in the Last Day. (John 12:48)

The Father delivered man into Jesus' hand to Judge. (John 5:22) Hence, God(Jesus) will Judge man in the last day.

The bible clearly states to Fear God, for the Hour of His Judgement has come. (Revelation 14:7) (Also see Revelation 19:1-2, Romans 14:10)

"In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge..."([URL="http://www.city-data.com/kjv/2Tim/2Tim_4.htm//l1"]2 Tim. 4:1[/URL]) (Jeremiah 23:5-6)

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."([URL="http://www.city-data.com/kjv/2Cor/2cor_5.htm//lWe"]2 Cor. 5:10[/URL], Joel 3:12)

God will dwell with man in new Jerusalem; the paradise Earth. (Revelation 21:3-7, Revelation 22:3-4)

Jesus was the word of God. Jesus was Lord of Lords, and King of Kings. The Lamb of God. The Prince. (Revelation 19:11-16) (Psalm 47:2, 1 Timothy 6:15)

Jesus is indeed the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning aand the End. Yes he had a beginning as a human being, and yes he was created as a human being, allowing him to be the only begotten Son of God; None-the-less, he existed in Spirit first, and was in the beginning with God, and if God Almighty had no beginning in Spirit(at least not one that we as human beings can comprehend), then it's likewise with Jesus Christ! Jesus was subject to a physical death, and not a spiritual death. Jesus is forevermore, eternal, always...(Revelation 22:13, John 17:5)

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Revelation 1:8)
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]"This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."([/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][URL="http://www.city-data.com/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_44.htm//l6"][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Isaiah 44:6[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/URL][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2])(Isaiah 48:12, Jeramiah 10:10)[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
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[SIZE=2][FONT=Verdana]"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."([/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][URL="http://www.city-data.com/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_43.htm//l10"][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Isaiah 43:10[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/URL][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2])[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
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[SIZE=2][FONT=Verdana][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]"He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he."([URL="http://www.city-data.com/kjv/Deut/Deut_32.htm//l1"]Deut. 32:4[/URL]) (2 Samuel 22:32)

"...for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."([URL="http://www.city-data.com/kjv/1Cor/1cor_10.htm//lAnd"]1 Cor. 10:[/URL])

"For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior"([URL="http://www.city-data.com/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_43.htm//l3"]Isaiah 43:3[/URL]) (1John 4:14, Zechariah 13:9)

"...And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me."([URL="http://www.city-data.com/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_45.htm//l20"]Isaiah 45:21[/URL]) (Deuteronomy 32:39, Titus 2:13, Isaiah 44:6)

Now my actual conclusion that I drew from scripture just blows me out of the water. In the book of Revelation, John clearly indicates that Jesus Christ is God! Read and learn, and you'll clearly see this. The bible interprets itself.
In Revelation 1:1, what does John say?

God sent the Revelation to John by way of his angel. (Revelation 1:1-2)

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; [SIZE=4]and he(God) sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John[/SIZE]: who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all the things he saw. (Revelation 1:1-2)

Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

In Revelation 22:16, what does John recollect Jesus saying?

[SIZE=4]I Jesus have sent mine angel [/SIZE][SIZE=3]to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (Revelation 22:16) (Revelation 2:8)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
Was it God who sent the angel to John, or was it Jesus who sent the angel to John? Clearly there was only one angel who was sent to John to bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ! Clearly Jesus Christ and the Father are One. There is Only One God! Jesus Christ and the Father are that One God, and They are the same spirit in unity!

God is Love, and what greater Love can be given than to sacrifice his only begotten Son, himself, the Firstborn of God, God as Man, the Son of Man, his very own beloved creation. Then, he gave his life only to take it. Only God can have such power. (John 3:15-16)
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