Did Joseph Smith really say that? (believers, dogma, prayer, sin)

[zimbabwe]

Joseph Smith once said "Happiness is the object and design of our existence and will be the end thereof if we pursue the path that leads to it, and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, and holiness and keeping all the commandments of God"

I think this is a profound statement.

[godofthunder]

I do wish you'd come up with a more concise list. Very difficult to repsond to such a long post. Going to have to break it up. I would request that if you want to discuss any of the point or counterpoints that we limit it to one specific topic at a time.

[quote=twin.spin;2779290]

Well, if you haven't noticed, any time someone speaks for the beliefs of Mormons that isn't apologetic in nature, those pro-LDS and "devils advicates" have major objections to any one speaking in their behalf. Besides, you know what they believe anyway.

Yes I do know what they believe because I wasted a lot of time trying to save people I love from Mormonism, only to conclude in the end that they do not need to be saved from their beliefs anymore than Baptists, Presbyterians, Catholics or Jehovah's Witnesses need to be saved. They all believe in Christ and trust in his infinite sacrifice for salvation. They are all heirs to salvation.

As for Christian belief, here is what the Bible teaches and I believe.........

Just be very very careful when presuming to know for certain what the Bible teaches. The mistake made by virtually all denominationalists is that they approach the Bible with preconceived ideas of what is true, then start applying their preconceived "truth" to the passages of scripture as they read them. This is completely backwards from the way that God intended it. You would to well to throw out all your preconceived notions and just read the Bible and let IT do the teaching. You'd be surprised at how differently the scriptures read when you stop trying to tell them what they are supposed to be teaching you.

GOD......
1. I believe that there is only one true God (Isaiah 44:6).

Fair enough. The Gnostics and Mormons have the same general notion. "God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost, all one Eternal God." As the Mormons would call it, one Godhead. A unified council of three infinite beings with exactly the same goals, purposes, thoughts, etc. They do not hold separate agendas. If you know one, you know them all because they are exactly alike. They are One.

Truthfully, the real disagreement comes down to this: What is the intended meaning of the word "One". We are commanded to be one. A husband and wife are commanded to be one. The point is, there's plenty of Biblical text to refute the notion that "I and the Father are one" absolutely must mean "I and the Father are the same person."

In the end, you believe God is one. So do Mormons.

2. He has made himself known as the triune God, one God in three persons. (This is evident from Jesus’ command to his disciples to baptize “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19).)

1.) No he really hasn't "made himself known as the triune God." Words like Holy Trinity, Triune God and so forth are not to be found in the Bible. They are found in the Creeds and Confessions of faith of various Christian religions. I reject those Creeds and Confessions because I do not believe they were revealed by God. They are the dogmas of men.
2.) The use of Matthew 28:19 to demonstrate the "absolute truth" of the Trinitarian Dogma has me completely baffled. How you can manage to pull THAT meaning from THAT scripture is mind boggling.

3. Whoever does not worship this God worships a false god, a god who does not exist. Jesus said, “He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him” (John 5:23).

So Mormons honor the Father and they honor the Son. You're claims that Mormons and others worship a false god, is a ridiculous notion. Can you honestly say that you fully and completely comprehend God? Is there some passage of the Bible that specifically states that failure to accept the Trinitarian Dogma makes you wrong? I'm sorry, but I have tried and failed to find the Triune God Theory explained in the Bible. All that the Bible truly offers are passages that can be interpreted to validate the Triune God Dogma, but can just as easily be interpreted to mean that there are three separate persons who are one in purpose.

[godofthunder]

Originally Posted by Twin.Spin

4 A. God has no beginning or end.

And interesting tidbit I came across in their doctrine. Souls are eternal. They have no beginning and no end. Joseph Smith used his ring as an object lesson to illustrate the point. So according to Mormon Doctrine, God has not beginning and no end.

--B. God is a spirit, no physical characteristics (flesh and bones)

This one is nearly impossible to sell. The Bible offers a couple passages of scripture. "God is a Spirit." "No man hath seen God at anytime." And then God keeps showing up. Men keep seeing him. He keeps showing up with physical characteristics.

Then to really throw a wrench into this theory God takes human form as Christ (running with the idea that God the Father and Jesus are the same person for now), dies and then is Resurrected bodily. He had a body. That body rose from the dead. He proved it to the Apostles in every conceivable way. He rose up to Heaven, apparently with that same body. No passage of scripture states that he ever got rid of that body, nor does it state that Christ does not have a body. If he has a body, he has phyical characterstics. If he'd gotten rid of that physical body, I think that the Bible would have said so, don't you?

By the way, there isn't a passage in the Bible that specifically states that "God has no phyical characteristics." That's in the Nycene and Athanasian Creeds and Confessions.

--C. God is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient
--D. God is holy, just, merciful and perfect
--E. God revealed himself in nature --“The heavens declare the glory God (Psalm 19:1 and Romans 1:20) So there is no excuse for atheists.
--F God revealed himself in the Bible

Cool, everyone passes those tests. Moving on.

JESUS.......
1. is Immanuel (God with us) (Matt 1:23)

Mormon belief stating Jehovah = Jesus good enough for you?

2. is the Word (John 1:1-14)

An incredibly broad statement and certainly the subject of a lot of interpretation, but ultimately everyone passes this one too.

3. was present at the creation of the world and everything in heaven (John 1:1-14)

God the Father, who Mormon belief equates with Eloheim, and Jehovah (aka Jesus Christ) were both present for the creation I do believe. So no problem there.

4. only begotten Son of God

God is the Only Begotten Son of himself. Does that seem strange to anyone else but me?

--A. The meaning of only begotten. "Only begotten" is from the Greek monogenes. This word is used nine times in the Greek New Testament. The word is a compound word, mono, meaning only, and gennesis, meaning birth. "Only begotten" (monogenes) is used five times by John, three by Luke, and once by the writer of Hebrews. Luke used the word to describe the widow's son, "only son of his mother" (Lk. 7: 12, see 8: 42, 9: 38). The writer of Hebrews said Abraham "offered up his only begotten son" (Heb. 11: 17).

Okay got it. Begotten means begotten. Moving on.

--B. Only begotten as applied to Jesus. The scriptures teach that God's people are "sons of God" (Rom. 8: 14). Modernists contend that Jesus was simply another son of God. Not so! Jesus' Sonship was understood as indicative of deity (Jn. 10: 36, 38). Monogenes is used of Jesus' Sonship. Jesus is the "only begotten Son" (I Jn. 4: 9). "Single of its kind," comments Thayer, "…used of Christ, denotes the only Son of God or who in the sense in which he himself is the Son of God has no brethren…he is of nature or essentially Son of God, and so in a very different sense from that in which men are made by him children of God" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, pgs. 417, 418). God's people are adopted "sons of God," contrast to Jesus is the only Son of God by nature (cp. Rom. 8: 14-16).
--C. As God's monogenes Jesus enjoyed unique glory (Jn. 1: 14). The only begotten declared God (Jn. 1: 18). Jesus being of the same essential nature as the Father could reveal God as no other could (Jn. 14: 8-11). The only begotten is the ultimate expression of God's love (Jn. 3: 16, I Jn. 4: 9). Moreover, we must believe in the only begotten Son of God (Jn. 3: 18, 16).

And you had to go and wander completely outside of the Bible and into the books of theologists, didn't you! Was the Biblical text insufficient to prove your point? And this whole bit surely does seem to be saying that God the Father and Jesus Christ are seperate beings. Otherwise, the only way to the Father is through the Father since the Father is Christ. But that's not what the scriputres say. They say the only way to the Father is through the Son. Are you still so absolutely sure that there aren't two individuals being spoken of?

5. Laid aside his Heavenly titles (Isaiah 9:6), and his omnipresents, omnipotents and omniscients. Gave glory to God while in his humiliation, yet accepted worship from others while remaining perfect.
6. Became human, being found as a servant humbled himself
7. is God-man
8. Died, rose from the died (physically) as he said he would
9. Who's death was the full payment of all sins who ever will have lived (past, present and future) on earth.
10. Jesus is to be worshiped and praised
11. Jesus' return will be unannounced, quick as lighting, and to establish a new heaven and new earth.
12. Jesus will invite the few who believe in his saving plan, eternal life with God. The many will go to hell. (Matt 7:13, 22; 24:5,10,11)
13. God has given the full revelation of himself in his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

No problems there.

[godofthunder]

Originally Posted by Twin.Spin

THE BIBLE.......

1. is a written revelation of God and his plan of salavation for all people in the Holy Scriptures. His revelation in the Bible has two main messages, the law and the gospel. The law declares what is right and wrong, and it threatens God’s punishment for sin. The gospel presents the love of God, which he has shown especially by providing salvation from sin through Jesus Christ.

There's a lot of revelations in there spanning milenia. I hope you're not implying that it was one single revelation. That would be like stating that the Revolutionary War, War of 1812, Mexican American War, Civil War, Spanish American War, World War I and World War II were all really the same war.

On most of the rest, I have no real arguement at this point in time.

2. the entire Bible is Christ-centered. In the Old Testament God repeatedly promised a divine deliverer from sin, death, and hell. The New Testament proclaims that this promised deliverer has come in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus himself says of the Old Testament, “These are the Scriptures that testify about me” (John 5:39).

3.God gave the Scriptures through men whom he chose, using the language they knew and the style of writing they had. He used Moses and the prophets to write the Old Testament in Hebrew (some portions in Aramaic) and the evangelists and apostles to write the New Testament in Greek.

4. These men “spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:21). What they said was spoken “not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit” (1 Corinthians 2:13). Every thought they expressed and every word they used were given them by the Holy Spirit.

Yes, yes, that's the way God always has done it and that's the way he always will. He's used the same program since the world began. No problem here.

5. that Scripture is a unified whole, true and without error in everything it says, for the Savior said, “The Scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35). Therefore it is the infallible authority and guide for everything we believe and do.

6.the Bible is fully sufficient, clearly teaching people all they need to know to get to heaven. It makes them “wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus” (2 Timothy 3:15), and it equips them for “every good work” (2 Timothy 3:17). Since God’s plan of salvation has been fully revealed in the canonical books of the Bible, we need and expect no other revelations (Hebrews 1:1,2). The church is built on the teachings of "the" apostles and prophets (Ephesians 2:20).

The wording in the Bible does not say "Bible", it says Scriptures or it says the Word of God. The implication you're making is that the Bible is what is specifically being referred to. That's a tough case to make since neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament were fully compiled nor canonized nor were they one single book. They were many separate books. They would not be one single book for over 3 centuries.

You've got a very very tough task if you're goin to say that the Bible teaches that God changes and that he stopped revelation to mankind at some point.

As for the scriptures you're referencing:

Hebrews 1:1-2
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

You're really starting to hurt my brain if you're trying to tell me that this passage of scripture is saying that God stopped talking to man. It says he did and does. I fail to see where this passage announces the end of God revealing himself to mankind.

Ephesians 2:20
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone

This does not say anything is built upon the WORDS of Apostles and Propets. It says "built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets." The Mormon religion claim to have both. I'd say that would make them more in harmony with this passage than any other denomination.

Personally, I find the implication that God is no longer capable of talking to mankind offensive and belittling of God. I also seem to remember that God doesn't change, yet this quaint little Myth you and so many other denominationalists are trying to push as fact says that God does change. That for the first time in human history, he drops off a book and abandons mankind to figure it out for themselves.

One of the biggest flaws to the naive theory that the Bible is complete and whole is that the Bible keeps referencing me to books of scripture that no longer exist. If there once was a Book of Nathan the Prophet, then it was scripture. If it is missing then some of God's revelations to mankind are missing from the Bible. That alone would destroy your Bible Myth -- "the Bible is the complete, whole and perfect word of God."

7. God has justified all sinners, that is, he has declared them righteous for the sake of Christ. This is the central message of Scripture


8. that individuals receive this free gift of forgiveness not on the basis of their own works, but only through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9).


9. that sinners are saved by grace alone

10. that faith in Jesus Christ always leads a believer to produce works that are pleasing to God. “Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead” (James 2:17). As a branch in Christ the vine, a Christian produces good fruit (John 15:5). Good works are a reflection of a active faith being displayed, not part of the salvation process

So what your saying is that the only true Christians are Born Again Christians? You've now disowned the vast majority of Christian denominations. Shocking as this may seem to you, the Born Again Christian Dogma is not accepted by the VAST majority of Christian religions.

Okay, so you've established that Methodists, Presbyterians, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and a very very large list of other denominations ... are not Christian. All I can say is that people from those faiths are going to take exception to that notion.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by godofthunder

And interesting tidbit I came across in their doctrine. Souls are eternal. They have no beginning and no end. Joseph Smith used his ring as an object lesson to illustrate the point. So according to Mormon Doctrine, God has not beginning and no end.

The human soul has a beginning but it will have no end. It begins at conception and will leave the body at death to be judged and will either be in the presence of God or sent to hell. Then it will be reunited with the body for the FINAL judgment were both body and soul will be judged and will enter heaven or hell .... forever.
Only God has no beginning - God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Ghost. One God, three persons.

ONE GOD (SINGULAR)
Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other. also in-
1 Kings 8:16
Isaiah 44:8
Isaiah 45:5,6,14,18
Isaiah 45:22
Isaiah 46:9
Joel 2:27
Mark 12:32
Acts 4:12

SINGULAR GOD, PLURAL REFERENCE TO HIMSELF
Genesis 1:26 in which God says "Let us make man in our own image"

Genesis 3:22 in which God says, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."

Genesis 11:7 in which God says, "Let us go down and confuse their language."

Isaiah 6:8 in which God says, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"—

Each time using the singular (because there is just one God) and the plural (because there are 3 persons) interchangeably, clearly indicating that there is more than one person in God.

Most direct verse speaking of the “Trinity”

Colossians 2:9 “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,”

NAMES/TITLES OF THE THREE PERSONS OF THE TRINITY

OF THE FATHER ------------Verse
A and Z -------------Rev 21:6,
Alpha and Omega ----Rev 21:6,
Almighty------------ Rev 19:6,
Almighty God --------Rev 16:14; 19:15
Beginning and End ---Rev 21: 6,
Being -------------- Col 1:19 & Heb 1:3
Blessed One -------- Mark 14:61
Caretaker -----------John 15:1
Creator ------------ Rom 1:25, 1 Pet 4:19
Father (selected) ---Matt 5:16; 28:19, Mark 8:38, Luke 6:36, John 1:14, Acts 1:14, Rom 1:7, 1 Cor 8:6, Gal 1:1, Eph 1:2, 1 Pet 1:2, 1 John 1:3, Rev 1:6
Father of Lights ----Jas 1:17
God (selected) -----Gal 1:1, Rev 1:6
Head --------------1 Cor 11:3
Helper -------------Heb 13:6
Holy One ----------1 Pet 1:15, 1 John 2:20, Rev 16:5
Judge -------------John 8:50, Heb 12:23, Jas 4:12
King ---------------Rev 11:15, 17; 19:6
King of the ages ---Rev 15:3
Lawgiver ----------Jas 4:12
Light --------------1 John 1:5
Lord ---------------Matt 11:25, Luke 2:22, Rev 11:15
Lord Almighty ------2 Cor 6:18
Lord God Almighty --Rev 4:8; 11:17; 15:3; 16:7; 21:22
Lord of hosts ------Jas 5:4
Lord of heaven and earth -----Luke 10:21
Lord of the harvest -----------Luke 10:2
Love --------------1 John 4:8,16
Majesty -----------Heb 1:3; 8:1
Master ------------Acts 4:24, Rom 8:20, Eph 6:9, 2 Tim 2:21
Most High ---------Luke 1:35; 1:76; 6:35
Most High God -----Mark 5:7, Luke 8:28, Acts 16:17, Heb 7:1
One-Who-Is,
-One-Who-Was -----Rev 11:17; 16:5
One-Who-Is
-One-Who-Was
--One-Who-Will-Be, - Rev 1:4
Savior --------------Luke 1:47, 1 Tim 1:1
Who-Was, Who-Is
Who-Will-Be --------Rev 4:8

2 OF CHRIST

A and Z --------- Rev 22:13
Alpha and Omega- Rev 22:13
Beginning and End Rev 22:13
I AM -------------John 8:58
Immanuel [God with us] Matt 1:23
God (selected) -----John 1:1: 20:28, Rom 9:5, 1 John 5:20
Light ---------------Matt 4:16, Luke 2:32, John 1:4,5,7,8,9; - 3:19,20,21; - 12: 35,36,46
(plus @ 100 other names that Jesus is called by in the NT alone!)

3. OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
Comforter -------- John 14:16,26; 15:26, 1 John 5:6
God ---------------Acts 5:4
Holy Spirit (selected) -----Matt 28:19, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33
Seven Spirits ------------- Rev 1:4; 3:1; 4:5; 5:6
Spirit (selected),-----------Matt 12:18, John 1:33, Rom 8:26, 1 Cor 2:10,11, Rev 22:17
Spirit of Truth, ------------ John 14:17; 15:26; 16:13, 1 John 5:6

Of course, by coincidence, the three Holy in Rev 4:8

"Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come"

Originally Posted by godofthunder

only to conclude in the end that they do not need to be saved from their beliefs anymore than Baptists, Presbyterians, Catholics or Jehovah's Witnesses need to be saved. They all believe in Christ and trust in his infinite sacrifice for salvation. They are all heirs to salvation.

You're forgetting (maybe deliberately) "After all they can do" That's called work righteousness............................

"Joseph Smith once said "Happiness is the object and design of our existence and will be the end thereof if we pursue the path that leads to it, and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, and holiness and keeping all the commandments of God"
This is not the Gospel that saves.......... which is no gospel at all.

The Jesus of Christianity is not the same as LDS...... you are just simply incorrect to think otherwise.

John 6: 28-29; 43-45

"28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.
"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him[mankind] up at the last day. IT is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God."

Who is going to call the dead out of the grave at the last day? answer - Jesus
(that doesn't sound like Mormon husbands to me.)

What work does God REQUIRE? (verse 29)

Those who preach\believe more than what God requires were not (verse 45) "taught by God!"

What does Paul say about another gospel other than what we already preached..... even from an angel from heaven, let him be eternally condemned!

No one can come unto Jesus unless how? Does Jesus say the Father, or through a Church?

*Jesus calls himself God vs45 (That makes JWs non Christian)
*Jesus accepts worship as God (doubting Thomas, Mary at the tomb, man healed from leprosy)
*Father calls himself God.
*Holy Spirit is called God (Acts 5:3 & 4)
(Don't forget the three HOLY, HOLY, HOLYs of Rev 4:8)

"Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." Acts 5:3-4

Originally Posted by godofthunder

Mormon belief stating Jehovah = Jesus good enough for you?

No

Originally Posted by godofthunder

God the Father, who Mormon belief equates with Eloheim, and Jehovah (aka Jesus Christ) were both present for the creation I do believe. So no problem there.

I didn't word it correctly.... Jesus created the world and everything in heaven. John 1:3

Originally Posted by godofthunder

And you had to go and wander completely outside of the Bible and into the books of theologists, didn't you! Was the Biblical text insufficient to prove your point?

Well, how many of your answers had any Biblical texts to them?

[SergeantL]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

"Joseph Smith once said "Happiness is the object and design of our existence and will be the end thereof if we pursue the path that leads to it, and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, and holiness and keeping all the commandments of God"
This is not the Gospel that saves.......... which is no gospel at all.

Based on what you have written, I assume you are not subject to the commandments.

[zimbabwe]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

"Joseph Smith once said "Happiness is the object and design of our existence and will be the end thereof if we pursue the path that leads to it, and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, and holiness and keeping all the commandments of God"
This is not the Gospel that saves.......... which is no gospel at all.

The Jesus of Christianity is not the same as LDS...... you are just simply incorrect to think otherwise.

Twin, I appreciate your consideration of Joseph Smith's Quote. I know that we will not agree but I would still like to defend the quote. As to your other objections, Thunder will probably respond and do a better job at it then me.

First of all, Joseph Smith was not speaking of salvation as much as happiness. Of course you may say that there is no happiness without salvation and I agree, but lets take the quote in its stricktest sense as it regards to happiness. From the Book of Mormon we learn the Adam fell that man might be and men are that they may have joy. There are many in the christian world that subscribe to the belief that men are inherently evil and that only through the most extreme forms of deprivation can a man draw near to God.

Mormons do accept this view. Within each of us is the spark of the divine, for we are the offspring of God. Happiness truly is the object and design of our existence and our happiness makes God happy.

There are many which look upon Christianity as restictive, rigid, and dogmatic, and the spoiler of all that is fun. The commandments of God are not given to spoil our fun but to protect us from evil and the consequences of evil. In my professional life I often have a front row seat to witness the effects of sin in the lives of others, and the same goes for my personal life. There is joy and happiness in virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, and holiness and in keeping all the commandments of God.

Is the young man who killed nearly two dozen people at Northen Illinois University yesterday happy? or his victims? Of course not. Breaking the Lord's commandment in this case has caused a great deal of misery for everyone involved.

I have in my scriptures a small tract from a local Christian Church that encourages all of us to accept Jesus as our Savior. Let me quote it.

"Why not be 100% sure [that you are going to heaven] today? Would you just pray this prayer from your heart?

'Lord Jesus, I know that I'm a sinner and that you died for me. Please forgive me from my sin and take me to heaven when I die. Thank you! AMEN'" (brackets added for clarification)

If I am not misinterpreting this tract-- and I always allow others to interpret their own doctrine and material-- then if you say this prayer and believe in your heart, you are saved. I must ask, where is the repentence? You may say it is implied. I would say, implied, schmied! I have read this tract many times there is not one mention of repentence for sins. If there is no repentence (turning away and forsaking our sins) then there is no forgiveness, and if there is no forgiveness, then there is no happiness. To think that we can go on sinning and be saved in the kingdom of God is not correct. If we take pleasure in breaking the commandments of God why would we even want to go live in the presence of God?

In the Book of Mormon, a prophet named Nephi cuts to the chase regarding this issue:

7 Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us.
8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

The prophet Nephi goes on to say how vain and foolish is this sort of doctrine. I could go on but I think I've made my point. One Book of Mormon prophet said that wickedness never was happiness. I couldn't agree more.

[godofthunder]

Twin.Spin, I'm going officially give up on wasting my time on the matter. You CANNOT prove the Trinitarian Doctrine to be 100% correct by the Bible alone. For every passage that seems to absolutely prove the Trinity Dogma correct, there are numerous passages that seem to absolutely disprove it.

What's the difference between one interpretation or the other? Pre-conceived notions. If you approach the Bible with the Trinitarian Doctrine firmly set in your mind, and you are completely closed to all other "truth" then the tendency is to simply disregard or explain away passages that seem to disprove what you "know to be true." It works equally well for the Dogma stating that there are three separate persons within the one "Godhead."

The biggest difference I see is that Trinitarianists are IMMENSELY SELF RIGHTEOUS about their viewpoint. This is a big struggle for someone like myself. I'm not dead set on either opinion, but the overwhelmingly obnoxious attitudes of Trinitariansts makes me want to abandon the Trinitarianist Doctrine altogether. But I refuse to let the actions and behaviors of others determine what I believe to be true.

I could go scripture by scripture for you, but I think you must realize that it's a waste of time. You are only open to one "truth" so I am choosing not to waste my time on the matter.

I didn't word it correctly.... Jesus created the world and everything in heaven. John 1:3

Yes, Mormons believe the Jehovah (Jesus) created the world and all things.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by SergeantL

Based on what you have written, I assume you are not subject to the commandments.

Hi sergeant,
Again, the answer is based on from what it is you are implying by saying "subject to the commandments"

Paul (who probably would be the Mormons Mormon of our day) answer to that would be emphatically, ........ NO!
No, that is if you're using the law to be found worthy before God.

Romans 8:19-20
"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."

Romans 3:21
"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify"

Any prophet who is from God will testify a righteousness [worthiness] apart from the law.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified [ to be declared worthy by Heavenly Father] by faith apart from observing the law.
__________________________________________________ _______________

Now here comes the ya but....................................

Romans 3:31
"Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law."

My freedom FROM the law, doesn't give me a license to break the law. There will be those who will warp God in the other direction. As God spoke to the writer to the Hebrews rightfully warns.....

Hebrews 10:26-27
"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

God is serious about "the truth" or the rejection of it. This is no game of second chances, please don't believe that lie. After death those who reject "the truth" will face judgement and a raging fire of Gods wrath.

The proper use of the law is the key difference between the different faiths.

Have a good day, sergeant.

[coolcats]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

The Jesus of Christianity is not the same as LDS...... you are just simply incorrect to think otherwise.

I am not going to concede this point, by I will propose a compromise. I cannot stand this “My Jesus is better than your Jesus” attitude. But I have come to realize that this is the way some people think. Therefore I propose the following:

You can say “The Jesus of [Insert Denomination] is not the same as the LDS Jesus. However, in the [Insert Denomination] portion must be more narrowly defined than just “Christianity”. You can say [Evangelicals] or [Born Agains] or [According to my understanding], but you must specify more than “Christianity.” After all, you consider yourself a Christian. We consider ourselves to be Christians. And you do not have the right to co-opt the term for your exclusive use.

I will then agree with the spirit of your statement that you differ in some aspects of your understanding of Jesus from us. Then after this life, we can let Jesus judge us on our own merits