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Might as well ask if we should eat, too, Jimmie. Our carnal appetites have little to do with our spiritual goals. Our state of mind as we deal with our carnal appetites is what should concern us. Everything we are cautioned about relates to our state of mind as we act, NOT our physical acts, per se.
Marital sex was ordained by God. Calling it a carnal activity is mistaken, imo.
Cannibalism exists in nature, as well. So does pedophilia, murder, etc. But I'm guessing you don't consider those to be good things. Does that make you a bigot? If not....why not? Using your logic, of course....
That's because it's a loaded question where you're assuming motive and then chastising them for not providing an answer to why they have the motivation. It's like asking when someone stopped beating their wife.
1) Does cannibalism hurt others, and is it selfish? Yes or No?
2) Does pedophilia hurt others, and is it selfish? Yes or No?
3) Does murder hurt others, and is it selfish? Yes or No?
Now about homosexuality---is it either selfish or an attempt to purposely hurt others?
Saw a trailer for what appears to be a great movie coming out in November. Boy Erased, with Russel Crowe as a fundamentalist preacher and Nicole Kidman as his wife.
It's an expose of the pain and suffering fundamentalists cause gay people--even those of their own family. It also shows how the beliefs of fundamentalists with regard to homosexuality causes THEM to suffer as well.
Cannibalism exists in nature, as well. So does pedophilia, murder, etc. But I'm guessing you don't consider those to be good things. Does that make you a bigot? If not....why not? Using your logic, of course....
That's because it's a loaded question where you're assuming motive and then chastising them for not providing an answer to why they have the motivation. It's like asking when someone stopped beating their wife.
I have only met one person who had done canibalism. It was either eat a dead person or die. Is that a bad choice on his part? Would you choose to starve to death or would you too eat a dead person?
Why bring up pedophilia in your conversation about homosexuals? It's more of a smear by association. You do realize that in both pedophilia and murder there are real victims. Killing a person or loving a person equals the same thing?
Actually, homosexuality IS natural to the person who is homosexual. So it IS - or should be - good and acceptable. I'm not sure why this would even be an issue, but it would seem to be that bogus interpretations of scripture get in the way of logic and reason . . .
Speaking of that, BaptistFundie, I asked a question of Jeff a few days ago that he seems unable to answer ...at least he hasn't responded to it thus far. So, I'll ask the same question of you. You believe that the Bible condemns homosexuality ...correct? Where in scripture do you get this belief from? You see, the only references to same gender sex practices mentioned in scripture that I can see pertain to idolatry and affiliated sexual rituals as performed between temple prostitutes and their 'clients'. In fact, I'm so sure that there are no references to homosexuality in scripture as we today define the term, i.e. practices that are NOT equated to idolatry, that I'm wondering where the 'anti-gay' religious crowd are coming from. Can you present scripture - ANY scripture - that deals with same gender sex practices that DOES NOT refer to idolatry and temple prostitution ...?
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Do you believe Billy Graham was a false teacher? Because he was quite in agreement with the Bible that homosexuality is sin.
Billy Graham was wrong ...just as is his son, Franklin. One being wrong does not necessarily equate to one being a false teacher. Those such as yourself, Jeff, persistently accuse those of us who disagree with you as somehow calling Jesus a false teacher or a liar. Just stop doing that ...okay?
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
If God has no problem with homosexuality, why did He describe it as detestable in Leviticus 18:22?
"God" says many things are 'detestable' in the Old Testament. Many professed Christians commit many such detestable (to God) acts on a daily basis. In fact, look below to your reference regarding Sodom and Gomorrah for a personal example.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Why does He say homosexuals with not inherit the kingdom of God in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11?
GOD didn't say anything of the sort ...and nor did Paul who is credited for having written the epistle. You do know that Paul does not equate to God, don't you? That said, 1 Corinthians doesn't say anything about homosexuality anyway. Are you using a post-1946 Bible as your witness, Jeff? I've said it many times before and I guess that I have to say it again ...NOWHERE in the original manuscripts of scripture is the term 'homosexuality' (OR its Hebrew and Greek equivalent) used to describe a specific sexual orientation. Homosexuality as per its modern definition would certainly have been unknown to Paul and other Bible contributors.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
1 Timothy 1:10-11 lists homosexuality in the same category as liars and enslavers. It is clearly sin.
Sin, sin, sin! That's all you 'fundies' seem to think about. BUT, it never applies to one's self, always someone else ...right? Once again, NOWHERE in that particular text is homosexuality mentioned. If you've got a King James version Bible on hand, Jeff, how about you offer up the very same text and apply the term 'homosexuality' to the reading? It's not gonna happen, is it? You require the very word "homosexuality" jumping out at you in order to make your case.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
And Jude 7 clearly shows that the sin of homosexuality is the reason why Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed.
Nothing about temple prostitutes there.
Liar, liar! If we read EVERY Old Testament mention of Sodom and Gomorrah we will find NOTHING pertaining to homosexuality! This is a ruse that was initially instigated by 'someone' and it snowballed into this false notion that homosexuality was the cause of the demise of S&G and is STILL being preached from the pulpit by professed 'men of God'! It's a complete fabrication! How about you present the passage of scripture from Ezekiel, Jeff, where we are told CLEARLY as to WHY S&G were destroyed? Here, I'll do it for you:
Ezekiel 16:49-50 ...Now this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed, and complacent; they did not help the poor and needy.
Lying is an abomination to the Lord, Jeff. Proverbs 12:22. And, professed Christians commit this abomination whenever they equate the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah with homosexuality!
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Futhermore, you have Jesus only describing marriage as between a man and a woman. He would have described all types of unions if God wanted them.
Again, you're using dishonesty in your attempts to support a flimsy support of your anti-gay stance. You know as well as I do that Jesus was responding to a question asked of Him about DIVORCE. Regardless as to whether Jesus had been for or against homosexuality, He had NO REASON to even broach the subject in His response to the question. Tell me, Jeff, do you ever use the text where Jesus describes marriage as being between one man and one woman to those who are both divorced and on their second or third marriage who sit in the pews of your church? It's THEY to whom you should be directing that scripture ...NOT to gay people to whom it has NOTHING to do with!
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Bottom line is that homosexuality is an affront to God's plan.
YOUR bottom line.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
That's what Satan promotes. Anything that is exactly opposite to God which his way of sticking it to God. Satan wants mankind to suffer so homosexuality is a tool to cause great problems and distress as well as open people to more demonic influence.
Such a load of horse-dookie.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
This is one reason why the suicide rate is so high among gay people. The reality is that we are in a spiritual war for our souls. We need to be focused on fighting that war daily rather than selfishly focused on what I can get out of this life.
So, we should all be wearing sack cloth and ashes and practicing self-flagellation, the act of hitting oneself with a whip as part of a religious ritual, eh, Jeff? Okay. Whatever floats your boat.
Marital sex was ordained by God. Calling it a carnal activity is mistaken, imo.
Ah, jimmie, there is little that is more carnal than sex. We have the ability to bring love to it and make it spiritual and that is what marital sex is supposed to do. But you have to know that there is nothing necessarily spiritual about pure lust or its motivation. You can not be that naive'.
Marital sex was ordained by God. Calling it a carnal activity is mistaken, imo.
It has potential to be a very spiritual experience if both parties are walking with God in love toward others. But I fear too many men miss the deep spiritual connection of sex. For some, it is a heavenly, spiritual union, no doubt, particularly for those couples who put each other first.
It has potential to be a very spiritual experience if both parties are walking with God in love toward others. But I fear too many men miss the deep spiritual connection of sex. For some, it is a heavenly, spiritual union, no doubt, particularly for those couples who put each other first.
Disregarding your comment about men, my point is the bolded.
The idea that homosexuality is harmless is one that the gay community and its supporters are promoting without a solid foundation. Historically, homosexuality was regarded as a mental disorder and homosexual practices such as sodomy were crimes.
Yes, and female orgasms were once diagnosed as "hysterical paroxysms", fortunately we evolved out of that particular stupidity, along with the one that says homosexuality is a mental disorder. Also, "sodomy" is engaged in by straight folk as well, it is not a "homosexual practice". in fact, you can't name one thing gay people do, that straight people do not do. Not one thing. That you believe that we are somehow mentally disordered coupled with the fact you've been charged with teaching children scares the living hell out of me.
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Homosexuality was considered as repugnant, aberrant and contrary to nature.
As noted above, we used to believe all manner of stupidity until research became available disproving said stupidity.
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Suddenly, within in the space of a few years, we're being asked to accept that homosexuality is normal and that homosexual relationships are essentially the equivalent of heterosexual ones.
Because they are.
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Yet the evidence suggests that the homosexual lifestyle is far more promiscuous and disease prone than the heterosexual one.
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Homosexuals suffer from a higher incidence of depression and other disorders.
Yes, that's what happens to a group that is ostracized, bullied, members of said group disowned and abandoned by "Christians" such as yourself, not to mention the ones who were forced into the horror show called "reparative therapy" wherein most went back into the closet so as not to lose familial connections, or be thrown out of their churches.
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Homosexuals can't procreate
THAT IS A LIE. YOU ARE A LIAR. CAPITAL L, small i, small a, small r, PERIOD.
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and we don't yet understand the long-term consequences of children being raised by homosexual partners.
Actually, a quick search on The Googles will give you this:
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Claims that children need both a mother and father presume that women and men parent differently in ways crucial to development but generally rely on studies that conflate gender with other family structure variables. We analyze findings from studies with designs that mitigate these problems by comparing 2‐parent families with same or different sex coparents and single‐mother with single‐father families. Strengths typically associated with married mother‐father families appear to the same extent in families with 2 mothers and potentially in those with 2 fathers. Average differences favor women over men, but parenting skills are not dichotomous or exclusive. The gender of parents correlates in novel ways with parent‐child relationships but has minor significance for children's psychological adjustment and social success.
I looked it up for you, just click on the blue words.
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Indeed, we don't even fully understand the root causes of homosexuality.
Indeed, we don't fully understand the root causes of a great many things. So the hell what?
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Many homosexuals insist that the proclivities can be overcome and that they are happy to be out of the homosexual lifestyle.
Some people will do or say anything to be accepted after being ostracized. Many of those have been caught in gay bars on the down low, so what's your point?
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Homosexuality and the homosexual lifestyle have a dark underbelly that isn't being acknowledged. Certainly some of the problems are due to the persecution of homosexuals, and I enthusiastically support the prosecution of persecutors. However, there is plenty of reason for caution before we start accepting homosexuality and homosexual unions as normal. For reasons having nothing to do with my Christianity, if I had underage children I wouldn't be comfortable with a school (or teacher) or youth organization that was actively promoting a homosexual lifestyle as normal.
In other words, you encourage persecution, but let's call it something else.
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(I'm a teacher at a Christian school.)
And that's scary as hell.
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This isn't because I'm homophobic but because I don't believe we know enough about the causes and effects of homosexuality to be suddenly declaring it normal.
We haven't "suddenly" declared a thing.
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As a Christian, I do believe that the marital union of a man and a woman, with different responsibilities and obligations for each, is God's plan for humanity. As a Christian, I will simply never regard homosexuality as normal or homosexual unions as marriages in God's eyes.
And I will simply DISregard what you think of me, and my LGBTQ brothers and sisters. I AM normal, whether you like it or not.
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I do believe that the increased acceptance of homosexuality and homosexual unions is having a detrimental effect on the functioning of society as God intended. This of course is equally true or even more true of no-fault divorce, adultery and lots of other things that are contrary to God's commands but increasingly accepted within a society that is rapidly fulfilling what the Bible predicts for the end times.
You mean things like slander and bearing false witness? There is lots of both in your post.
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As a Christian, I don't believe that homosexuals should be persecuted. Whatever rights the law gives them, I will accept in my role as a citizen just as I accept no-fault divorce and lots of other things. However, my refusal as a Christian to consider homosexual practices as anything other than sinful and my refusal as an American citizen to embrace and celebrate homosexuality and homosexual unions as normal is neither hate-filled nor homophobic.
I think that this is the legitimate point that BaptistFundie is making: We don't uncritically accept other behaviors that may be detrimental to the participants or society. We (meaning the laws) discriminate all the time where this promotes the welfare and orderly functioning of society. For reasons entirely apart from the Christian objections, there are good secular reasons not to be too quick to accept homosexuality and homosexual unions as normal. I'm not prepared at this point to accept that homosexuality is harmless for the homosexual or for society.
Hate is too strong a word for you? Pastors and parents (and teachers) say they don’t hate homosexuals, and insist they only hate the “lifestyle,” that is, they only hate homosexual sex acts. Then Christian kids, gay and lesbian young people, sons and daughters, commit suicide. I can only say that those those brave, defiant pronouncement on behalf of God based on the Bible are hateful. Are they protected speech? Yes. Is it the free exercise of religion? Yes. However, when you and others casually disavow responsibility for the impact of your words on the innocent, and the innocent take their own lives because of those careless, literallyirresponsible words–well, if that doesn’t constitute hate, let’s look for something else.
On “Law and Order” I hear phrases like “wreckless disregard,” “criminal negligence,” “depraved indifference,” and the like. If “hate” is too strong, then how about criminal.
I'm reminded of Proverbs 24:11-12
Rescue those who are unjustly sentenced to die; save them as they stagger to their death. Don’t excuse yourself by saying, “Look, we didn’t know.” For God understands all hearts, and he sees you. He who guards your soul knows you knew. He will repay all people as their actions deserve.
Saw a trailer for what appears to be a great movie coming out in November. Boy Erased, with Russel Crowe as a fundamentalist preacher and Nicole Kidman as his wife.
It's an expose of the pain and suffering fundamentalists cause gay people--even those of their own family. It also shows how the beliefs of fundamentalists with regard to homosexuality causes THEM to suffer as well.
My guess is there is no fundamentalist with the courage to look into the mirror by watching this film.
Of course not.
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Boy Erased
