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This god who hates folk even before they are born and then throws 95% of folk into a lake of fire for not believing what you do. Even the pagans love their own and this despicable god you believe in can't better that ?.
You are looking at it exactly backward.
Because of original sin, all men are born in sin... and, therefore 100% are destined to hell.
That is justice... 100% of men go to hell because ALL MEN sin.
---
However, the GOOD NEWS is that some are "chosen" to be saved.
That is the GRACE of God that even one sinner could be saved.
Your perspective is exactly backward.
The disciples did not steal Jesus' body and then spend the rest of their lives being willing to suffer and even go to their deaths, which at least some of them did
Mike, why on earth would you contradict yourself in such stark terms as saying..."The disciples...even go to their deaths" and then follow with a completely contradictory statement like "which at least some of them did..." You work it down from 70-something disciples plus 12 apostles who went to their deaths down to some who went to their deaths then down to one, James.
Other than James and maybe Peter and Paul, what written evidence to you have to show that the "disciples then spent the rest of their lives being willing to suffer and even go to their deaths"? This is all myth, legend, stories evolved about the apostles becoming martyrs, etc. There's nothing historic, even in the New Testament scriptures about their fates.
Well, my first reaction when I read a few of your posts was, "We have a live one here, folks---a dyed-in-the-wool, fire-breathing fundamentalist". Sounded like fun at first. But then I "was grieved in my spirit" (to use Biblease) because I saw you are a newbie and didn't have the benefit of all the terrific discussions we've had in here over the last few millennia. So it's like starting over from scratch.
>>>>>>>>>>But I am curious as to WHY that surprises you?
Well because I find it humorous and surprising and well....downright revolting all at the same time that a person with no more love for humanity in them than a fencepost could actually believe God is going to fry 6.9 billion people just because they don't conform to your idea of how they should behave.
I am certain you are a legend in your own mind.
However, you are making a straw-man argument when you pretend that people
are sentenced to eternal torment because they do not believe as I do...
do you not realize that making straw-man arguments proves nothing,
except a lack of honesty.
People do not go to hell for not believing as I do,
instead, they go to hell to pay for their sins.
The Creator had the RIGHT to make rules and to establish the penalty for sin (breaking rules).
In fact, 100% of all men should go to hell because ALL MEN sin.
However, by the Sovereign (unmerited) Grace of God, while captive to Satan
and destined to eternal torment, SOME MEN are chosen to be saved...
and are included in the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The 6.9 billion people you cry about... have no Savior.
So they must pay for their sins personally.
This is Christian Theology 101 buddy...
The fact that you pretend otherwise demonstrates EITHER
(a) That you are completely clueless about the Christian Gospel or
(b) You are less than honest and prefer to fight straw-men.
My take...
Jesus came to wake us up to Reality...in a sense you could call that ' to save us' from
our idiot delusions that this place is real...oh really? Jesus: Here, lemme show you something...Peter? Join me walking on water. Is this place what you thought it was? No. Is there something going on you were not aware of? Yes, and I'm here to show you...thus, save you.
So, if a person believes in a different set of Laws...Spiritual Laws, believes in the
Unseen World of the non-physical...that all is possible...that Jesus was able to actually
raise from the 'dead'...you are saved.
Saved from the limited egoic Thought System that keeps people in this Dream World.
Bingo! You are free from delusion. Oh, I mean saved from delusion.
I'd like to feel Christ raised within me, so would millions of other Christians who are falling away from the faith.
What I wonder is "Is this God/Jesus failing us OR is it our failing God/Jesus?" Who's to blame for Jesus never having manifested himself to me and millions of others who have prayed and, by their own testimony, never felt any sort of response from him?
Paul was always angry at people because they remained as children on milk and he told them that until Christ was formed in them, they were pretty much his babies, but if the babies never eat meat and Christ is never formed, then the child is taken away but that doesn't mean the person isn't saved it would just mean their work would be burned. The idea is that you become the keeper over the household of God to give his children meat in due season even like a woman who has never been with her husband and yet, she is pregnant. I don't think a person gets anywhere just by saying they believe, but that if they really believe, they would begin walking as a person who really believes, and this is to begin walking in self sacrifice.
The disciples did not steal Jesus' body and then spend the rest of their lives being willing to suffer and even go to their deaths, which at least some of them did, including Jesus' own brother, James who had not believed that Jesus was the Messiah during His ministry, for what they knew to be a lie. Liars make poor martyrs. Nor would a stolen body explain why Paul, who had persecuted the Christians, suddenly became a believer himself.
The idea that the disciples stole the body is one of the proposed naturalistic explanations for the empty tomb which most serious scholars, even agnostic scholars, have never taken seriously. Most scholars who are involved in resurrection studies believe that the disciples had an actual experience of some kind which led them to believe that they had seen the risen Jesus. The question is then, what was that experience? None of the naturalistic explanations work, including the hallucination hypothesis.
In 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 Paul relates what scholars recognize as a pre-Pauline creed or tradition which was circulating orally from the beginning of the church. Most scholars who have studied in this area believe that Paul received this tradition from Peter and James when he met with them three years after his conversion. This means that the tradition itself goes back even earlier. Paul states that on one occasion Jesus appeared to over five hundred people, most of whom were still alive. This means that what Paul had said could be verified by those witnesses to Jesus' resurrection.
But since you regard listening to scholars who are involved in resurrection studies concerning Jesus to be a waste of time, you aren't in a position to offer an informed opinion. All you have are uninformed, subjective feelings on the matter. But the information is there if you change your mind. And if you continue in the mindset that it is a waste of time to listen to what the scholars have to say, then I'll not waste my time trying to convince you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Mike, why on earth would you contradict yourself in such stark terms as saying..."The disciples...even go to their deaths" and then follow with a completely contradictory statement like "which at least some of them did..." You work it down from 70-something disciples plus 12 apostles who went to their deaths down to some who went to their deaths then down to one, James.
Other than James and maybe Peter and Paul, what written evidence to you have to show that the "disciples then spent the rest of their lives being willing to suffer and even go to their deaths"? This is all myth, legend, stories evolved about the apostles becoming martyrs, etc. There's nothing historic, even in the New Testament scriptures about their fates.
You deliberately deleted the part of the phrase 'being willing to suffer and even go to their deaths' and then accuse me of contradicting myself. I have had it with you and your crap.
Still, heaven is a place with 3 sections, it's not something to say ,'' This or that.''
The differences in the kingdom of heaven are shown in many saying where you see people believing and teaching and doing miracles in Jesus name, and yet they will not be allowed in the Zoe abundant life kingdom, but they are still saved but weeping and gnashing teeth.
People come into the higher kingdom and then are escorted out. All people are tested by fire and the ones who don't burn in the fire receive reward, and the ones who burn in the fire are only saved, and they have no reward, a big difference and yet both are saved.
My take...
Jesus came to wake us up to Reality...in a sense you could call that ' to save us' from
our idiot delusions that this place is real...oh really? Jesus: Here, lemme show you something...Peter? Join me walking on water. Is this place what you thought it was? No. Is there something going on you were not aware of? Yes, and I'm here to show you...thus, save you.
So, if a person believes in a different set of Laws...Spiritual Laws, believes in the
Unseen World of the non-physical...that all is possible...that Jesus was able to actually
raise from the 'dead'...you are saved.
Saved from the limited egoic Thought System that keeps people in this Dream World.
Bingo! You are free from delusion. Oh, I mean saved from delusion.
The problem with your perspective is that it contradicts the Bible.
The Bible is very clear, within the "Kingdom of Heaven" (within the Christian Kingdom)
there are MANY (unsaved) "tares/goats" and there are relatively FEW (saved) "wheat/sheep".
So... the BIBLE teaches that the vast majority of those calling themselves "Christian"
are really (unsaved) "tares/goats"... and remain a "child of Satan".
And, of course, the BIBLE teaches that everyone OUTSIDE of the "Kingdom of Heaven",
including Jews, Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, Secular Humanists, Atheists, Pagans, etc...
are already forsaken because they have no hope of salvation without knowing Jesus.
Your words are cute... but hardly Biblical.
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