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Old 03-15-2016, 05:20 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,230 posts, read 26,447,455 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyawehNyoh View Post
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†. Gen 6:9 . . Noah was a righteous man

The Hebrew word for "righteous" in that verse is tsaddiyq (tsad-deek') which means just.

Webster's provides several definitions of "just", but perhaps the ones best suited for our purpose are: conscientious, honest, honorable, right, scrupulous, true, dependable, reliable, tried, trustworthy, dispassionate, equal, equitable, impartial, nondiscriminatory, objective, unbiased, uncolored, and unprejudiced.

Gen 6:9 isn't talking about spiritual righteousness, no; it's talking about personal righteousness; viz: Noah's conduct.

In other words: Noah was a good man; the exact opposite of his neighbors, about whom the Bibles says:

"the evil of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of his heart was only evil all the time." (Gen 6:5)

"The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence." (Gen 6:11)

When it comes to personal righteousness, Noah is on a par with a couple of other big names.

†. Ezek 14:14 . . Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in the land, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD

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I have to disagree with your statement that Noah's spiritual righteousness wasn't in view. Certainly Noah was a good man and exhibited good personal conduct. But as the writer of Hebrews tells us, Noah was righteous on the basis of his faith.
Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
The writer of Hebrews numbers Noah among the heros of faith in Hebrews chapter 11. Men who gained the approval of God on the basis of their faith (Heb. 11:1-2).

No one can enter into an eternal relationship with God on the basis of their own personal imperfect righteousness. It is only by being credited with God's own perfect righteousness through faith in Christ Jesus, (in the case of Old Testament persons, faith in the promise of the coming Messiah) that anyone can be saved. It is probable that Noah, his sons, and their wives were the only believers left on the earth at that time in which case that is why they were the only ones to be saved from the flood. Noah was in Jesus' line of descent.

Matthew Henry makes the following comment concerning Genesis 6:8.
Noah kept his integrity. God's good-will towards Noah produced this good work in him. He was a just man, that is, justified before God, by faith in the promised Seed. As such he was made holy, and had right principles; and was righteous in his conversation. He was not only honest, but devout; it was his constant care to do the will of God. God looks down upon those with an eye of favour, who sincerely look up to him with an eye of faith.

Genesis 6 Matthew Henry's Commentary
John Gill states the following.
Noah was a just man; not only before men, but in the sight of God; and not by his own works of righteousness, for no man is just by them before God, but by the righteousness of the promised seed, the Messiah; for he "became heir of the righteousness which is by faith", Hebrews 11:7 the righteousness which was to be brought in by the Son of God, and which was revealed to him from faith to faith; and which by faith he received and lived upon, as every just man does, and believed in as his justifying righteousness before God; though he also lived a holy and righteous conversation before men, which may rather be intended in the next part of his character:

Genesis 6 Gill's Exposition
The promised seed mentioned by both Matthew Henry and John Gill is a reference to Jesus.

In contrast with everyone else other than his sons and their wives, who may well have been the only believers left on the earth, Noah's good conduct among men stemmed from his personal relationship with God by which he was credited with God's own righteousness.

There is another aspect to this as well. Many believe, as do I, that Noah and his family were the only remnant of true humanity left on the earth as a result of an angelic infiltration in which a group of fallen angels mated with human females which resulted in a hybrid race of half human, half angelic beings called the Nephilim. The purpose of the flood was to destroy the hybrid race in order to preserve true humanity. Since the Second Person of the Trinity had to come into the world as a member of true humanity in order to die for the sins of the world, the hybrid race had to be destroyed. In fact, this was Satan's intent, to eliminate true humanity in order to prevent God from keeping His promise to send the Messiah into the world. Noah and his family then, being the only true humanity left on the earth, were saved from the flood in order to keep true humanity on the earth.

Passages which allude to fallen angels being involved in this are 1 Peter 3:19-20, 2 Peter 2:4-5, and Jude 6.
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Old 03-15-2016, 07:53 PM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
21,088 posts, read 29,223,196 times
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Eventually someone is going to run out of scripture and have to use their OWN words. Imagine, being ORIGINAL..the entire conversation could be altered.
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Old 03-15-2016, 08:15 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,230 posts, read 26,447,455 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47 View Post
Grace depends on our actions---Jesus taught---only those living to do Gods will get to enter his Fathers kingdom( Matt 7:21)( be saved--receive grace) whatever you want to call it. The only way one can live to do Gods will is by carefully studying every utterance and applying them, as Jesus said man -MUST live by. And its 100% fact--the teachers on earth who belong Jesus teach just that.
No, it does not. Grace means that God does all the work and man receives the benefit of God's grace. Paul noted that fact.

Romans 11:16 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Grace is God's attitude, and His policy concerning fallen mankind.
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Old 03-15-2016, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 276,472 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I have to disagree with your statement that Noah's spiritual righteousness wasn't in view. Certainly Noah was a good man and exhibited good personal conduct. But as the writer of Hebrews tells us, Noah was righteous on the basis of his faith.
Heb 11:7 speaks of Noah's spiritual righteousness, while Gen 6:9 , Gen 7:1, and Ezek 14:14 speak of his personal righteousness.

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Old 03-15-2016, 08:24 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,230 posts, read 26,447,455 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyawehNyoh View Post
Heb 11:7 speaks of Noah's spiritual righteousness, while Gen 6:9 , Gen 7:1, and Ezek 14:14 speak of his personal righteousness.

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It looks like we disagree then. And I believe I stated clearly why.
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Old 03-15-2016, 09:01 PM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA, now.
21,020 posts, read 19,383,279 times
Reputation: 23666
Oh... I know what Grace is...Oh my, do I know. And no Bible
verses so far could find the words to describe it...


Grace is what reaches down into a person from some supernatural place
and shows him realms that no human mind can fathom...Spheres of such
glory and sacredness...their lives can never see this world the same ever again.
Gifts of profound insight that no natural mind could comprehend...places where
Eternal praises are being sung...where every thought and feeling ever felt is all at once
experienced in a place where there is no time...the Eternal Now...all happening spontaneously... now...always... no beginning and no end...where you see
all of this is a dream...and the Only One is all there Is.

Last edited by Miss Hepburn; 03-15-2016 at 09:10 PM..
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Old 03-16-2016, 06:37 AM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 276,472 times
Reputation: 58
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When people begin giving common English words their own personal definitions instead of conforming to a universal standard such as Webster's, they invariably create a Tower of Babel and a very effective barrier to communication. In point of fact: they are then, in effect, speaking a foreign language.

†. 1Cor 14:19 . . In the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

For example: supposing you were a 1st grade Sunday school teacher and one of the little kids entrusted to your care asked you what grace is? Are you going to feed him a line of bombastic metaphors or are you going to give him a straight answer? You see, that impressionable little kid is relying upon you to tell the truth rather than snow him with your own personal opinions about what you think grace is and/or what you think grace ought to be.

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Last edited by NyawehNyoh; 03-16-2016 at 06:56 AM..
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Old 03-16-2016, 07:49 AM
 
4,217 posts, read 2,785,792 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
[b][color="Magenta"]Gen 6:5-8 . .

If Noah could obtain the grace of god without Jesus, what was the purpose for Jesus to have existed?
The grace of God is with the righteous and His glory is with His servants the prophets.
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Old 03-16-2016, 08:41 AM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 276,472 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
If Noah could obtain the grace of god without Jesus, what was the purpose for Jesus to have existed?
The benevolence of God has its limits. In other words: although God is kind, courteous, inclined to good will, generous, charitable, merciful, altruistic, compassionate, thoughtful, cordial, affable, genial, sociable, cheerful, warm, sensitive, considerate, and tactful; it goes against His grain to circumvent justice.

Christ's crucifixion makes it possible for people to satisfy justice on the cross instead of waiting to stand on their own two feet at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15. Were it not for Christ's crucifixion, everybody would end up in hell; even Noah.

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Old 03-16-2016, 12:36 PM
 
63,814 posts, read 40,087,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyawehNyoh View Post
The benevolence of God has its limits. In other words: although God is kind, courteous, inclined to good will, generous, charitable, merciful, altruistic, compassionate, thoughtful, cordial, affable, genial, sociable, cheerful, warm, sensitive, considerate, and tactful; it goes against His grain to circumvent justice.
Christ's crucifixion makes it possible for people to satisfy justice on the cross instead of waiting to stand on their own two feet at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15. Were it not for Christ's crucifixion, everybody would end up in hell; even Noah.
Nonsense. Justice is a man-made construct emanating from the human desire for vengeance, period. Grace simply means "We have nothing to do with the benefits received." In the case of what Jesus did for us, we have nothing to do with it! Jesus did it and it is finished. We are no longer permanently separated from God.
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