Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Since you don't claim to follow the Bible, why mention it?
But to answer your question, God spoke to 1 prophet, and didn't give contradicting messages to multiple "prophets", as many claim today.
The false prophets gave a false prophecy and were stoned to death. If we are to follow that method today, the first time you give us a message contradicting the Bible, you should be running for the hills.
Clearly there was a lot more to it than that. How did a man raised as an Egyptian princeling and who was a fugitive for murder get the entire Israelite nation to follow him down to the Red Sea and off into the wilderness? How did Israel know to follow Gideon? Samuel? How thoroughly did the apostles consult the Biblical text in order to determine that Jesus was the true Messiah and Son of God? Noah had a prediction, but you couldn't just wait and see if he was right. If you did that you died.
By the way, how does one, "Follow the Bible?" I do use it as a reference for how God works and how God thinks things should be done if that's what you mean.
If, by nature, I'm a sinner.....what does that mean I am drawn to?
It means that you are drawn to sin. Duh.
Quote:
I'll quote you a passage that sums it up.
1 Corinthians 2:14, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."
And I'll quote you one from the Book of Mormon that says pretty much the same thing. I don't think it's saying we're guilty of something we've never done any more than I think 1 Corinthians 2:14 is.
Mosiah 3:19 "For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord..."
Let the Bible interpret itself. Most want it their way, and it is clear without man's interpretations.
What all these threads seem to demand is some sort of equivocations and proof that their particular Christianity is worthy..which means for some odd reason that those of whatever JW in this case seem to feel they MUST blame/discalim the other..Silly really..
The bible is actually meant for inspiration..NOT direction..as in DOCTRINE demands..In a free Country demands is unacceptable..however guidance is deemed welcome..regardless Why do so many want to defend/blame/ridicule another's interpretation?? You got me??
The ONLY thing in JW teaching that went against me, was as an HC provider, was their interference of interventions (medical ones) such as refusing transfusions when lack of that would mean end of life avenues!! Other than that..I wouldn't give a care what they believe in..nor how they lived their lives
ETA~~ tho after reading here..JW and their format does ring very "Mormon-like" in they indoctrinate and promote talking points to their constituents to spread/deflect opposition to their doctrine...Never thought of that throughout my life until now!!
You know that, how? Because I can give you numerous passages all stating we are sinners. Psalm 51:5, Eph 2, Romans 3:23, Romans 3:10-11....
Of course he was. He was able to sin as a man -- he faced temptation. But he did not sin.
You're doing a lot of figuring there for a guy that was asking me to give scripture answers only.
The text says that in Adam we all sin. That's it. Now tell me again why you don't believe that?
It's cool if you can't. You wanted to teach a Witness something. I was giving you the chance and I was letting you know what to use. I keep taking about per-rebellion Adam and Eve. You keep pointing out post-rebellion people. I get it. Let's move on to what sin is and which is greater. Sin or holiness.
I do believe we all are in sin now of course. But you don't seem to be grasping what all sin includes. It's not just what we do. It's in our very DNA. Our bodies fail, get sick, born sick, grow old and die. Even if what we did was exactly according to what God wants. It wouldn't matter. It's in our genes to die. Is this clear? Your scriptures are not addressing my point and just repeating them is not teaching me anything new.
Also, anytime someone says it's my fault because I'm not asking the right questions, that throws up a major red flag. If you're supposed to be the 'teacher' and me the 'student' how are you going to tell the student that 'you're doing a lot of figuring'? Why is that bad? I have had tons of these types of conversations and I always get blamed for not asking the questions that people want to answer. I ask for Bible scriptures and suddenly I'm at fault? And no, this isn't a personal attack on you Vizio. I'm just talking out loud in frustration.
However, I am pleased to see that you also understand that Jesus was able to sin. I agree. I was hoping that you'd back it up with scripture. Again, this is nothing personal. You offered to be a teacher. I wanted you to know what that would actually mean for someone like me. The standard you'd have to reach. I study the Bible every single day. I seek gems of knowledge. Not to prove a doctrine. But to understand Jehovah.
ETA~~ tho after reading here..JW and their format does ring very "Mormon-like" in they indoctrinate and promote talking points to their constituents to spread/deflect opposition to their doctrine...Never thought of that throughout my life until now!!
I'm not sure where you're getting your information on Mormonism, but the amount of time we spend of "deflecting opposition to our doctrine" in our worship services or classroom study on Sundays is absolutely ZERO. We get ZERO instruction on how to convince people of other faiths that our doctrines are true. We never hear anything like, "Well, if you're talking to a Catholic and He brings up such and such, here's how you can effectively counter his position." Of course, when our missionaries talk to people, they will explain our beliefs and give scriptural support for them, but we are specifically taught NOT to engage in arguments with people over our beliefs.
Nope, Clear scripture is ... clear. It is only when men ignore the proper grammar rules or try to ignore the actual context or ... isolate a verse and give an interpretation, that we have problems.
Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about that. It blows my mind to hear you say this, but I guess that's how you actually see it, so what can I say?
Quote:
Now how about Baptism? It is a Christian rite and again multiple clear scriptures say it should occur. Where interpretation and man's thoughts come in with the baptism of, as an example, infant baptism, as an example. Infant Baptism is not mentioned and every example is adults choosing to be baptized.
Why I agree that infant baptism was never practiced by the earliest Christians, I have talked to Catholics who will point to a verse that says entire households were baptized, and that this would almost certainly have included some infants. I disagree with what they believe, but I can understand why they would have come to this conclusion.
Quote:
When someone wants to go beyond what is clear we get man's thoughts, like baptism for the dead, which is again taking a single verse out of context and ignoring the fact no such event is ever mentioned in clear scripture as occurring. A man made doctrine.
Well, again, we'll have to just disagree on this, as I believe proxy baptisms were a part of the early Christian Church and not a "man-made doctrine." There would be a better place to argue the point, though, than in this thread.
Quote:
Mans interpretation is easy to see and God's clear word is ...found in more than reading one verse out of context or ignoring proper rules of translation.Man's views are why we have so many denominations.
Your numbers are a bit off. The total is based on any slight disagreement between the some 5000 various MS. If 1 MS disagrees with an other, it is counted as 5000 disagreements. the reality is that the vast majority of differences are in spelling. With the discovery of the dead Sea scrolls we can see the minor variations.The old canard that we do not know what the originals said is now dead. We do know. Where there are some variations that are not spelling issues, they do not impact anything important such as was the number 70 or 72. Some want to denigrate the Bible so they can claim a new revelation has been given. Nope, such is not needed.
LOL, I guess it depends on who you ask. There are a lot of folks who say that there's a huge number of textual variants when comparing the Dead Sea Scrolls to the manuscripts that were used in our current Bibles. The vast majority of textual variances certainly are spelling or grammar or the like, but there are still hundreds to thousands that cast doubt on the true meaning of important passages of scripture. That really is a big deal actually.
Regardless, neither the Dead Sea Scrolls nor the Masoretic Text or the Septuagint are originals. We have no original texts. Not from the OT or the NT. Not one. As a result, we cannot actually know what the original copies actually said. We also know precious little about the circumstances surrounding their writing.
Quote:
If the Bible is not the touch stone for today, the nothing is. God may speak again, but there is no way to prove such has occurred, especially when it conflicts with the Bible. That alone would tell us the claim is false. Man exalting man is not uncommon and continues to this day.
It's always weird discussing this. The Bible purists always think you're completely disregarding the Bible and tossing it in the trash. I'm not. I still have great love and esteem for the Bible. I just don't think it's perfect, nor do I think that everything God ever wanted to tell us is found in it's 66 books. The Bible never says that. God never says that. It is a doctrinal outgrowth of the Protestant Reformation where the best reference for correct original Christian doctrine was the Bible. As the Bible became more and more available and the RCC was shown to be more and more unbiblical, the reformers came to rely on a Bible-first approach. Relying solely on the Bible is a doctrine of man and not of God and in the same category as Pharisaic traditions. Not necessarily bad or evil, but also never advocated for by God himself.
Moses relied on direct instruction from God and not the combination of Bible-only and the interpretations we've been taught by the tradition of men. So did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Noah, Gideon, Isaiah, Elijah, Elisha, David, Solomon, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Peter, James, John, Paul, etc.
Vizio hasn't answered yet so I'll just say it. If you're alive in Noah's time you have two choices: Believe Noah or don't believe Noah. If you're wrong, you're dead. So you pray to God asking for him to reveal His will to you.
A video from the upcoming convention was just leaked. You can watch it here and get a head start munching on that fine spiritual knowledge. Is what you are watching is what is probably the start of the Great Tribulation which comes right before Armageddon. I was always told the government would come and imprison(torture) me, maybe that's just a bedtime story for kids.. I guess these people are lucky being in a basement riding it out. Watch how they reflect fondly on their decision to give up material comforts prior to the start of the Great Tribulation. Let's review: it's a doomsday cult.
A video from the upcoming convention was just leaked. You can watch it here and get a head start munching on that fine spiritual knowledge. Is what you are watching is what is probably the start of the Great Tribulation which comes right before Armageddon. I was always told the government would come and imprison(torture) me, maybe that's just a bedtime story for kids.. I guess these people are lucky being in a basement riding it out. Watch how they reflect fondly on their decision to give up material comforts prior to the start of the Great Tribulation. Let's review: it's a doomsday cult.
I don't really see anything wrong with what the couple did. To some degree, I think they are to be commended for their faith. But I just don't think I could be happy with all that doom and gloom weighing down on me 24/7. I mean, it's like there is a total cloud of despair over them, which is sad.
That didn't come off as creepy to you? I'm not knocking the couple or someone that does what they think is right. It's fear mongering on the part of the organization to bleed people. They believe that Armageddon is right around the corner. A person can never do enough to please Jehovah (by way of serving the Watchtower) They did the same thing in 1974 encouraging people to sell their homes and dedicate full time to the ministry because the end was so near. Those people made sacrifices they may have not made had they known the world wasn't going to end in 1975.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
