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I would say that I admire the JW's in many ways, but seriously question them in others. They are good people who hold high moral standards. That's a rare thing these days. They are more dedicated to their faith and what they envision as doing God's work than almost any other religion. Rather than sitting on their butts at home, they're actually out there trying to spread the gospel as they understand it.
I am always happy to chat with the JW's, though it's an incredibly rare thing. Everyone else get's visited by them every month or two. We tend to go years without hearing from them -- so I suspect our house has been blacklisted or something along those lines. I've read through some of their material including a history of their religion written by them. As Matthew 4:4 said, if you want to know about a religion, go to the religion itself.
The things that puzzle me are things I've never gotten a good answer for. Not from JW's and frankly not from anyone believing the Bible to be sufficient, complete and infallible. I don't want to engage in anything that might be construed as "religion bashing." Suffice it to say that I can't make sense out of "God's Restored True Kingdom on Earth" having only the the canon established, endorsed and declared "closed" by the Catholic Church for scripture -- constituting a double endorsement of the RCC's authority from God. Closed canon has never made much sense to me and JW's have never been able to offer much clarity there. Neither have closed cannon Biblical purist Protestants for that matter. There's a very long list of items of doctrine I disagree with them on, but I greatly respect the JW's for having strong convictions.
Ultimately I see the JW's as good people trying their best to do what they thing God wants them to do and living clean upstanding lives. Looking at the world around us, you could certainly do far worse.
And we love people that see past our imperfections as the Bible instructs all believers of God to do and 'forgive freely'. (Colossians 3:12-14) This is the type of person Jehovah is looking for. He is also looking for those with faith in Him.
A quick answer to your question. You will not get any better than 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 as far as an answer in words. Which I know for most is not sufficient. The only thing better in the way of words would be an angel telling you that the Bible is complete. No one has seen one of those in almost 2000 years. Your options are do or don't believe the Bible is complete. The only way you can get physical proof is to study and also follow the commandments in the Bible. The Bible doesn't do anything for anyone unless they follow what it says. Jehovah invites people to 'test Him out please' in doing what He says will not give us blessings until there is nothing lacking. (Malachi 3:10) Even then don't expect some dove to land on our shoulder.
Also, don't expect answers to all of your questions. Expect answers on how to survive these last days. This is what is the most important thing. I too have to be patient for answer that the Bible doesn't have. I am prepared to endure and wait on Jehovah if I do the the Bible says, “Let endurance have its work complete, that you may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything.” (James 1:4)
Again, we can either believe that or don't. Apparently God doesn't send angels to all of us to constantly reassure us over and over and over. It appears as if God is saying, 'if you don't believe me the first time, why believe me the second or third.' The bottom line with the Bible is there is nothing better. Of course we are all free to search but I have done that already so I could save you some time but for most that isn't enough either.
Oh and we only 'blacklist' houses that tell us they want to be on the 'blacklist' or we are met with violence. Even then we know things change. There are many that used to hate Witnesses but now they are one. http://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODIntExp...201506_1_VIDEO
We never know when Jehovah will touch a person's heart.
Last edited by 2Timothy316; 05-03-2016 at 07:59 AM..
I was raised Catholic and attended services from other faiths as well over several years before deciding on baptism as a Jehovahs Witness. Two things were evident in the worship among other faiths and that is ritual and/or emotion. Jehovahs Witness services are not ritualized. No speaking in tongues. It's straightforward Bible discourse. Just my humble opinion- people have different needs. Ritual and showiness were never really my thing. Knowledge, that's really what I was after. Taking some courses at the university level left me with an uneasiness at just how much non Christian influence there's been on Christianity as it evolved. I thought to myself the Bible is supposed to be God's Word (some scholars teach that's not the case but ok, lets see what I can take away from it). Anyway, on Sundays the first 30 minutes is a talk about a subject of interest and is geared towards the public at large. It's followed by the study of the Watchtower (I think of it as a form of expository preaching). Matthew 4:4 summed up the meeting during the week. The contrast in environments was also striking particularly between Catholic churches and Kingdom Halls. Catholic churches are impressive show pieces replete with statues beautiful stained glass as well as highly ritualized services. I also attended a few services that were less traditional and included parishioners who banded together to play guitars and sing as part of the service (even reminded me of a Methodist service I attended). Pentacostal service was interesting with lots of emotion. In contrast Kingdom Halls have plain but comfortable interiors devoid of any idols. Music is provided from a small soundbooth. Collection boxes are located out of sight (you need not worry about any type of collection basket passed around). The Watchtower has a question and answer type format. Most Kingdom Halls are diverse and even those that aren't (due to the demographics of the neighborhood) will make one feel welcome regardless of race/ethnicity.
Yes, excellent post. Spot on.
To add to this, for the majority of the meetings we don't sit like knots on a log listening to lecture. We are encouraged to participate in the way of sharing what we found encouraging in the weeks study. To be able to do this requires personal study. We are very concerned with a personal friendship with God. What people see in service and at the meetings is really on the tip of the iceberg as to what can be seen. There is so much more that Witnesses do that is unseen by people. Being a Witness is not for those that don't want to work at their spirituality.
Again, if you are focused on the people of a religion then the Witnesses are not for you. From what I read above Bible education is not your focus.
My focus is on what I believe to be true, and I have already found that. But I also believe that the love Jesus Christ had for others will be evident in the lives of His followers, so yes, the people who claim to follow Him should reflect His qualities.
Quote:
While I know that I would love to convince someone of what the Bible says is true and I live for those few times that a person does so.
Me too. I just go about it differently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8
In other words, you don't sound like Paradise material Katz. Jehovah is going to destroy you very, very soon unless you repent and follow Timothy. That's OK, neither am I. I'm doing pretty good though because I was told this system of things would end before I finished high school and I am now 48. BONUS ROUND!!!!
Could we maybe meet up before we're destroyed then?
My focus is on what I believe to be true, and I have already found that. But I also believe that the love Jesus Christ had for others will be evident in the lives of His followers, so yes, the people who claim to follow Him should reflect His qualities.
No one can do it perfectly like Jesus but we can only try. Love for each other is the cornerstone for the true religion. Loyalty to God is the other.
Since you have already planted your flag on what you believe to be true, I wish you well with it.
We are very concerned with a personal friendship with God. What people see in service and at the meetings is really on the tip of the iceberg as to what can be seen. There is so much more that Witnesses do that is unseen by people. Being a Witness is not for those that don't want to work at their spirituality.
Well stated. People derive a deep spiritual connection from prayer, meditation, Bible study and application of what one learns.
I'm reminded of what Jesus said about worshipping the Father with spirt and truth. For me, and it's just my opinion, worshipping in spirit means it comes from the heart (that's the emotion, the motivation, the softening of one's heart). However, the second component is also important, worshipping in truth means knowledge (study and application of what is learned).
I guess this post is primarily for L8Gr8Apost8, or for anyone else with enough knowledge of the Jehovah's Witnesses to be able to give me an accurate answer based on personal experiences.
When Jehovah's Witnesses attend church for the purpose of worship, what exactly is the service like? How much focus is there on actual "worship" as opposed to studying the Bible and discussing how to put non-JWs in their place? I realize that this question gives away my negative bias, but I am genuinely curious.
I'm sure you'd be welcome to attend a service if you have a Kingdom Hall in your area. Why not go check one out?
And we love people that see past our imperfections as the Bible instructs all believers of God to do and 'forgive freely'. (Colossians 3:12-14) This is the type of person Jehovah is looking for. He is also looking for those with faith in Him.
A quick answer to your question. You will not get any better than 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 as far as an answer in words. Which I know for most is not sufficient. The only thing better in the way of words would be an angel telling you that the Bible is complete. No one has seen one of those in almost 2000 years. Your options are do or don't believe the Bible is complete. The only way you can get physical proof is to study and also follow the commandments in the Bible. The Bible doesn't do anything for anyone unless they follow what it says. Jehovah invites people to 'test Him out please' in doing what He says will not give us blessings until there is nothing lacking. (Malachi 3:10) Even then don't expect some dove to land on our shoulder.
Also, don't expect answers to all of your questions. Expect answers on how to survive these last days. This is what is the most important thing. I too have to be patient for answer that the Bible doesn't have. I am prepared to endure and wait on Jehovah if I do the the Bible says, “Let endurance have its work complete, that you may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything.” (James 1:4)
Again, we can either believe that or don't. Apparently God doesn't send angels to all of us to constantly reassure us over and over and over. It appears as if God is saying, 'if you don't believe me the first time, why believe me the second or third.' The bottom line with the Bible is there is nothing better. Of course we are all free to search but I have done that already so I could save you some time but for most that isn't enough either.
Oh and we only 'blacklist' houses that tell us they want to be on the 'blacklist' or we are met with violence. Even then we know things change. There are many that used to hate Witnesses but now they are one. Jehovah's Witnesses BROADCASTING
We never know when Jehovah will touch a person's heart.
2 Timothy 3:16, 17 -- "6 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God[a] may be complete, equipped for every good work." The oldest writings in the New Testament are the epistles of Paul. Many rightly point out that it was the immediate value that the early Christians placed on Paul's letters that encouraged more of the apostles to write things down. This does create a serious interpretation problem with this passage in Timothy though. There are two ways of reading it:
A.) All scripture is useful because it comes from God. It is good and useful to help us learn about God and do His will in our lives. To me, this has always been the proper reading of this passage.
B.) All scripture has already been written and there can't be anymore ever. The problem with this interpretation is that the passage simply doesn't say that. It says that scripture is good. It says why it is good. But it does not claim that it has ended.
The single biggest reason that interpretation B can't be correct is because all four Gospels, the Acts, several of the epistles of Paul, all of the non-Paul epistles and Revelation all hadn't been written yet. So if Paul is saying "all scripture has been written and there can't be anymore" then almost the entire NT is invalidated. Properly understood, Paul is talking about the Old Testament and nothing else. Truth be told, most of the NT writers had no idea that their writing would one day be regarded as scripture. The misuse of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 underscores one of the great logical flaws in modern day Christianity. There's this odd notion that the books of the OT and NT were all being written into some kind of single master-copy text and that it was always one big book. Truth be told, canonization did not occur until several centuries after the apostles were all dead. Nobody thought of the collected works we know of as the New Testament as one single work until hundreds of years after they were written. This fact effectively kills off every passage that could be used to "prove" that God has declared the canon closed. It is clear enough to me that God never said, "I God will never again have anything to say to humanity that is worth writing down." Only God has the right to do something as big and monumental as closing the canon.
I believe that God can speak if God chooses to speak. Not only are their likely many works missing from the Bible that should be in there, but God can add new things to the canon anytime He wishes. The fact that scripture apparently ceased could be compared to the Jewish canon ending with Malachi. Why didn't God continue speaking? According to the Jews, it is because after Malachi God didn't have anything more to say. Were they right?
One very crucial question: Did the early Catholic Church get the canonization right and how can we be sure? It's not as though Jesus walked into the room and handpicked the canon. No, it was done by committee -- and after revelation had supposedly ceased -- and wouldn't have been all that different from the US Congress doing it. Some texts were promoted because they fit with certain hidden agendas. Some were ignored because they didn't fit the agenda. A huge number were bonafide works of pious fiction and didn't deserve to be in the canon.
If you wish, we could forego all of this. I've been down this road many times with many believers in a closed canon, so I know very well that I'm not likely going to change anyone's mind. Still, it is very interesting to me to see how people with differing theology see things.
Last edited by godofthunder9010; 05-03-2016 at 11:56 AM..
Reason: bolding
I'm sure you'd be welcome to attend a service if you have a Kingdom Hall in your area. Why not go check one out?
Just for laughs, I looked it up and it's more or less as I remembered from when I lived in Utah. Kingdom Halls are pretty sparsely distributed there. A whopping total of three in the Provo/Orem/Salt Lake City area -- surprisingly few for a major metro area. Still, one of those might be close to her. But didn't Katz say she can't seem to interact with JW's without it turning into an argument? If so, I can understand not wanting to go there.
I've been meaning to go to one myself but something always comes up at my own church.
Just for laughs, I looked it up and it's more or less as I remembered from when I lived in Utah. Kingdom Halls are pretty sparsely distributed there. A whopping total of three in the Provo/Orem/Salt Lake City area -- surprisingly few for a major metro area. Still, one of those might be close to her. But didn't Katz say she can't seem to interact with JW's without it turning into an argument? If so, I can understand not wanting to go there.
I've been meaning to go to one myself but something always comes up at my own church.
Just type in Utah. Locations and meeting times are available.
Depends on who you talk to if there is to be some argument. Some don't get into arguments. They just say 'have a good day'. Some are old school. Like sometimes put their foot in their mouth old school. But more than likely, people will just greet you and be happy you are there. Find an elder if you want to talk to someone that has a mild spirit. Though they will not debate with you if that is what you are looking for. Stick the message boards if that is what you want. Even then most Witnesses will not keep on a subject that is going nowhere. But the elder should be able to direct you to someone that might be able to what you are looking for if they can.
2 Timothy 3:16, 17 -- "6 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God[a] may be complete, equipped for every good work." The oldest writings in the New Testament are the epistles of Paul. Many rightly point out that it was the immediate value that the early Christians placed on Paul's letters that encouraged more of the apostles to write things down. This does create a serious interpretation problem with this passage in Timothy though. There are two ways of reading it:
A.) All scripture is useful because it comes from God. It is good and useful to help us learn about God and do His will in our lives. To me, this has always been the proper reading of this passage.
B.) All scripture has already been written and there can't be anymore ever. The problem with this interpretation is that the passage simply doesn't say that. It says that scripture is good. It says why it is good. But it does not claim that it has ended.
The single biggest reason that interpretation B can't be correct is because all four Gospels, the Acts, several of the epistles of Paul, all of the non-Paul epistles and Revelation all hadn't been written yet. So if Paul is saying "all scripture has been written and there can't be anymore" then almost the entire NT is invalidated. Properly understood, Paul is talking about the Old Testament and nothing else. Truth be told, most of the NT writers had no idea that their writing would one day be regarded as scripture. The misuse of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 underscores one of the great logical flaws in modern day Christianity. There's this odd notion that the books of the OT and NT were all being written into some kind of single master-copy text and that it was always one big book. Truth be told, canonization did not occur until several centuries after the apostles were all dead. Nobody thought of the collected works we know of as the New Testament as one single work until hundreds of years after they were written. This fact effectively kills off every passage that could be used to "prove" that God has declared the canon closed. It is clear enough to me that God never said, "I God will never again have anything to say to humanity that is worth writing down." Only God has the right to do something as big and monumental as closing the canon.
I believe that God can speak if God chooses to speak. Not only are their likely many works missing from the Bible that should be in there, but God can add new things to the canon anytime He wishes. The fact that scripture apparently ceased could be compared to the Jewish canon ending with Malachi. Why didn't God continue speaking? According to the Jews, it is because after Malachi God didn't have anything more to say. Were they right?
One very crucial question: Did the early Catholic Church get the canonization right and how can we be sure? It's not as though Jesus walked into the room and handpicked the canon. No, it was done by committee -- and after revelation had supposedly ceased -- and wouldn't have been all that different from the US Congress doing it. Some texts were promoted because they fit with certain hidden agendas. Some were ignored because they didn't fit the agenda. A huge number were bonafide works of pious fiction and didn't deserve to be in the canon.
If you wish, we could forego all of this. I've been down this road many times with many believers in a closed canon, so I know very well that I'm not likely going to change anyone's mind. Still, it is very interesting to me to see how people with differing theology see things.
I too have been a billion of these discussions. They all end the same way. I don't have a pillar of cloud by day and pillar of fire by night to show you. If I did, it sure would make my life easier in proving that the Bible is the complete Word of God. Apparently that's the way Jehovah wants it. He wants us to make that leap of faith. Again, skipping to the end of the conversation because I have been in so many, truly the only way you can prove it to yourself is by living the way Jesus lived and holding close the principles in the Bible. Other than that all I have are words and the history books, scholars and blah blah. Those don't mean a thing if you don't experience living it. The other thing is that you have to start from scratch. Begin studying the Bible with no other doctrines before the Bible. Let the Bible prove it's own doctrine. Forget interpretations and mathematical stuff you see on TV. Dump it all and start fresh. Literally but yourself completely in the Word of God. It will be a marathon not a sprint. It might take a year or more before your faith is rock solid because their is so much to learn in the Bible. But once that light bulb is brighter than any doctrine you've ever heard then you will know that the Bible is truly the word of God is complete for every good work and building faith and not to answer every question. It's also impossible for me to put faith into someone's heart. This is between you and Jehovah. However, if you whole goal is to find some concrete error, then the message of the Bible will be useless to you. However, if you think you have found something better than the Bible I will certainly look into it and compare it. So far, I have found nothing that has come close.
Last edited by 2Timothy316; 05-03-2016 at 12:56 PM..
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