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Well stated. People derive a deep spiritual connection from prayer, meditation, Bible study and application of what one learns.
I'm reminded of what Jesus said about worshipping the Father with spirt and truth. For me, and it's just my opinion, worshipping in spirit means it comes from the heart (that's the emotion, the motivation, the softening of one's heart). However, the second component is also important, worshipping in truth means knowledge (study and application of what is learned).
And we love it!
I love getting some new nugget of understanding from the Bible. Some way I can improve my understanding of Jehovah. How I deal with life in general and enhance my happiness and of those around me.
Worshiping in spirit to me are all of those intangibles as you mentioned. Things that only exist in the mind and heart. I don't think it could mean any other way. We are not spirit creatures in meat suits so it must be feelings and desires. Yes, worshiping in truth is extremely important. Which is why we don't try to draw out some interpretation from scripture on our own from a one liner in the Bible. Scripture explains scripture. The Bible is the only thing we have that can be fully trusted.
2 Timothy 3:16, 17 -- "6 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God[a] may be complete, equipped for every good work." The oldest writings in the New Testament are the epistles of Paul. Many rightly point out that it was the immediate value that the early Christians placed on Paul's letters that encouraged more of the apostles to write things down. This does create a serious interpretation problem with this passage in Timothy though. There are two ways of reading it:
A.) All scripture is useful because it comes from God. It is good and useful to help us learn about God and do His will in our lives. To me, this has always been the proper reading of this passage.
B.) All scripture has already been written and there can't be anymore ever. The problem with this interpretation is that the passage simply doesn't say that. It says that scripture is good. It says why it is good. But it does not claim that it has ended.
The single biggest reason that interpretation B can't be correct is because all four Gospels, the Acts, several of the epistles of Paul, all of the non-Paul epistles and Revelation all hadn't been written yet. So if Paul is saying "all scripture has been written and there can't be anymore" then almost the entire NT is invalidated. Properly understood, Paul is talking about the Old Testament and nothing else. Truth be told, most of the NT writers had no idea that their writing would one day be regarded as scripture. The misuse of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 underscores one of the great logical flaws in modern day Christianity. There's this odd notion that the books of the OT and NT were all being written into some kind of single master-copy text and that it was always one big book. Truth be told, canonization did not occur until several centuries after the apostles were all dead. Nobody thought of the collected works we know of as the New Testament as one single work until hundreds of years after they were written. This fact effectively kills off every passage that could be used to "prove" that God has declared the canon closed. It is clear enough to me that God never said, "I God will never again have anything to say to humanity that is worth writing down." Only God has the right to do something as big and monumental as closing the canon.
I believe that God can speak if God chooses to speak. Not only are their likely many works missing from the Bible that should be in there, but God can add new things to the canon anytime He wishes. The fact that scripture apparently ceased could be compared to the Jewish canon ending with Malachi. Why didn't God continue speaking? According to the Jews, it is because after Malachi God didn't have anything more to say. Were they right?
One very crucial question: Did the early Catholic Church get the canonization right and how can we be sure? It's not as though Jesus walked into the room and handpicked the canon. No, it was done by committee -- and after revelation had supposedly ceased -- and wouldn't have been all that different from the US Congress doing it. Some texts were promoted because they fit with certain hidden agendas. Some were ignored because they didn't fit the agenda. A huge number were bonafide works of pious fiction and didn't deserve to be in the canon.
If you wish, we could forego all of this. I've been down this road many times with many believers in a closed canon, so I know very well that I'm not likely going to change anyone's mind. Still, it is very interesting to me to see how people with differing theology see things.
To a degree you are correct that scripture did not end with Paul. However any new scripture such as from James or Titus, etc HAD to agree with the existing scripture. Nothing that does not is from God. Many claim others have received new truth, but if it contradicts what is already recorded it is not from God. Simple to test as it were. As to canonization, it is just as the OT which was canonized by an apostate Jewish religious system. God gets done what he wants regardless of who he uses. It does not mean the "church" used is inspired or used by God in any other way.
As to canonization, it is just as the OT which was canonized by an apostate Jewish religious system. God gets done what he wants regardless of who he uses. It does not mean the "church" used is inspired or used by God in any other way.
I love getting some new nugget of understanding from the Bible. Some way I can improve my understanding of Jehovah. How I deal with life in general and enhance my happiness and of those around me.
Worshiping in spirit to me are all of those intangibles as you mentioned. Things that only exist in the mind and heart. I don't think it could mean any other way. We are not spirit creatures in meat suits so it must be feelings and desires. Yes, worshiping in truth is extremely important. Which is why we don't try to draw out some interpretation from scripture on our own from a one liner in the Bible. Scripture explains scripture. The Bible is the only thing we have that can be fully trusted.
As a Pastor, I'd love to teach you all about it then, if you're interested. Just PM me.
As a Pastor, I'd love to teach you all about it then, if you're interested. Just PM me.
Awe Viz, don't hide your light under a bushel basket. I would love to watch the interaction between Ultimate Truth vs. Ultimate Truth (tm). Near as I can tell you guys aren't that far apart really anyway. You could start off with some common ground like how you use that scripture in Isiah and go from there. If you are honestly intending to help people do it right out in the open. You never know who may be lurking.
I'm sure you'd be welcome to attend a service if you have a Kingdom Hall in your area. Why not go check one out?
I'm sure there's more than one in a city the size of Salt Lake. I have attended several churches' services other than my own, including Catholic, Pentecostal and Unitarian. I just don't like going alone.
Wow. That really just blows my mind -- especially the "Theocratic Ministry School" part. I just know that every time I have ever tried to have a conversation with a JW (mostly on another forum I post on, where there are a whole lot of them), I have always gotten the impression that there was a kind of a pro-programmed response they were supposed to give to every point I raised. It's frustrating, because I really do like to learn about other people's beliefs. It's just been almost impossible to have a conversation that's strictly a back-and-forth dialogue built on mutual respect and interest in understanding and building bridges. Your answer helps me understand why that is.
Not pro-programmed--The JW,s accomplish this-1Cor 1:10-- unity of thought-no division. Taught how to be as close as one with Jehovah and his son.
Tell you what. Give me your best answer for the following question using the Bible.
If Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge but Adam didn't would their children still be born with the mark of sin?
Remember, your answer must be Bible based.
I look forward to your answer, Enjoy!
Romans 5:12-14
"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come."
1 Cor 15:21 "For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead."
Adam is blamed for the sin. We are children of Adam at birth, and we must be born again as children of the "New Adam" -- Jesus. So, to answer your question, Scripture never explicitly answers your question, but it seems to imply that the answer to your question would be "No". Elsewhere in Scripture, we see blessing and curses passed down specifically from the Father to the child. Never from the mother to child. That's why Jesus had an earthly mother, but no earthly Father.
To a degree you are correct that scripture did not end with Paul. However any new scripture such as from James or Titus, etc HAD to agree with the existing scripture. Nothing that does not is from God. Many claim others have received new truth, but if it contradicts what is already recorded it is not from God. Simple to test as it were. As to canonization, it is just as the OT which was canonized by an apostate Jewish religious system. God gets done what he wants regardless of who he uses. It does not mean the "church" used is inspired or used by God in any other way.
So let's say tomorrow God speaks to Bob down the street. (Not trying to be funny either, the Biblical God is notorious for picking extremely ordinary men.) As long as everything Bob writes agrees with existing scripture, then the newly minted Book of Bob is also scripture of equal standing with the existing 66 books of the Bible. Fair?
I think the Bible is an excellent tool for pointing us to God and that has been my own lifelong pursuit. It was a very long time ago that I realized that the entire point of the Bible was not to be the repository of all needed truth, but to point us to the source of all truth -- God Himself. I can tell you that the knowledge and certainty of God's existence, God's love, the reality of what Jesus Christ did for us -- it all burns so brightly inside me that I cannot begin to describe it. I know God is and I know it better than seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting or smelling. The very core of the New Testament message was to have a personal relationship with God built upon direct personal revelation. Wretchedly undeserving though I might be, I have that in my life. God never intended for that to end.
My point when mentioning the Jewish closure of the canon is to underscore one simple fact: Just because we haven't heard from God in awhile doesn't mean He doesn't speak or that He won't speak again. Most likely, it means that like the Jews we lost the ability to listen. It is not God that moved. It was us -- and it behooves us to find and fix whatever went so horribly wrong.
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